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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    None of these are relevant.

    It's the same as how Su-24s performed precision strikes in Syria using dumb bombs. They moved the sensors in the aircraft instead of keeping it in the weapon.

    India does something similar with the Siva pod and KH-31 combo.

    Even the F-35 is yet to be integrated with an ARM. It may not be for all you know. There's not a single ARM in this list.
    [​IMG]
     
    Sancho, Abingdonboy and DAC O DAC like this.
  2. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    We try, unsuccessfully, to explain to BMD why the Typhoon has lost all its technical confrontations with the Rafale, and how much, information about the F-35, is pure propaganda. We are kind to him to try not to sadden him but he always seeks confrontation with the French and believes that he knows better the Rafale than Dassault and Thales who give us information. He always tries to counter us by selecting studies of Anglo-Saxon origin not well informed. You must not be too angry with him, life is hard with his beliefs
     
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  3. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Err yeah, they're extremely relevant unlike you like being fooled. What you're looking at is a random satellite picture by an Israeli satellite, that's been annotated, which someone has then claimed as a French SAM kill. And even if it were such, this is an old school SA-3 with a range of only 15km. It could easily have been targeted the traditional way, using a targeting pod and killed by a very mundane weapon, like a Maverick fired from an A-10C.

    Very old picture. SPEAR and SDBII will have been integrated by 2020, JSOW can be used in the meantime. However, even a regular Paveway can dispatch an SA-8/SA-3. Not that even the latest radars can see the F-35 in the first place. Long term, there is AARGM-ER, circa 300-500nm range and also MASSM.

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/f-35-too-stealthy-2016-8?r=US&IR=T

    http://www.janes.com/article/63385/...-based-g-ator-systems-under-latest-lrip-award

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Don't get me wrong, the Rafale isn't terrible, it's just been way over-hyped.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  4. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  5. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Aside from this being dubious and unofficial, what do you want? Credit for evading an RFCLOS guidance technology that wasn't even reliably able to hit B-52s in the early '70s, even using SA-2 missile warheads with a 120m kill radius. The US could jam this technology 45 years ago. But so can the Rafale (maybe/perhaps), wow, so impressed, that'll do you a lot of good against an S-400 won't it?

    And for the record, despite its use in several wars, the SA-8 fired at your flight that first sortie has never killed a single plane, ever, in the whole of history.
     
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  6. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Bharat Karnad is not the best of the blog poster but he posted his ode to ex DM MP in his blog.. there is a particular excerpt here of immense importance

    Quote
    Then prime minister Narendra Modi’s Paris trip happened in April 2015 and, voila! just like that, there was the announcement of a buy of 36 Rafales — a ridiculous figure because it meant the IAF could do very little with it in terms of strengthening its force posture or warfighting capability. They were too few in number to operationally matter, and too costly to risk in hostilities, but may prove useful to Vayu Bhavan as a wedge to wangle the resources to get an additional 100-200 Rafales in the future. This decision marked Parrikar’s slide. He could not in good conscience act gung-ho about Rafale, equally he couldn’t be seen,or even politically afford, to oppose the PM.

    This is a sidebar– but why Modi made this decision remains a mystery, considering the Rafale makes little military, political, or economic sense. If, as is being alleged, President Francois Hollande lubricated the Rafale deal by promising Indian nuclear weapons designers access to the French inertial confinement fusion (ICF) chamber in Bordeaux so that India’s unproven and untested thermonuclear designs can be validated short of explosive underground testing, and also finessed, by triggering miniature fusion reactions in the ICF facility, then Modi has taken a big gamble. Paris has not always delivered on its contractual or even secret executive-level agreements. Assuming they do this time, where’s the guarantee that the French won’t pass on the Indian ICF data to its friends and allies, thereby compromising the Indian deterrent? Moreover, is a paper promise of access to ICF, Bordeaux, worth the escalating costs of the Rafale, considering Indian scientists continued to gain from access to the Russian ICF in Troitsk, outside Moscow?
    Unquote

    Source - https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/03/20/why-parrikar-failed-in-defence/


    This is the first confirmation of what many of us including me and @vstol jockey has always said..about help in our N program and particluarly the new age next generation design miniaturization and validation.

    Whether Karnad is raising the bogey or validating the point needs tro be seen.. his POV of Russian side giving us access as well historically will also mean we might have data points which enables us to have at least design and validation at par (almost) with Russian side.. Thus PM Modi and to be precise NSA Doval gamble in every manner is one of the very best gamble especially moving forward when we will have more SSBNs and SLBMs.
    • Interestingly Karnad did not cover the Barracuda help point in this writeup
    • Also not covered is the simple point that for just 36 you wont be given access nor we will order a Euro 2 Bn customization.

    Thus it goes back to what i have said long back, India has clearly indicated the ball park figure of what number we are looking at when we ordered the Tranche 1 of Rafales and in return France and India both clearly agreed the area of co-operations including black projects.

    @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @vstol jockey @Hellfire @MilSpec @Levina @Ankit Kumar 001 @Gessler @all others
     
  7. Grevion

    Grevion Think Tank TROLL ELITE MEMBER

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    How much leverage do we gain with the access to the French Inertial Confinement Fusion keeping in mind that our scientists already have the access to the Russian ICF chamber near Moscow??
     
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  8. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    I may not be the correct person to explain the rationale but what i understand is the following..

    If i understand correctly the access of Russian ICF has max given us limited leverage and our 1st and 2nd generation warheads are a bit on heavier side..

    This is the main challenge bcz deploying MIRV will require a full certification of the new warheads with miniaturization and demonstration of its flawless design.. the Original P5 especially France , USA and Russia has done the maximum number of tests and had collected a massive database of all design and test results. In our case we need to go for Shakti 3 to validate those new designs and also look at NG designs to further make it more capable..

    An example is the 1500 kg warhead Agni 5 reaching 7400 km.In such a case if we want to load a 3 MIRV design the present 450 kg x 3 = 1350 Kg on 3 warheads alone and thus dummy and the RV heat shield has nothing left to actually make it up... OTOH the NG design to see this compressed to 150-200 KG enabling a 3-6 MIRV with dummies easily ... The difference is phenomenal. The output itself can be boosted a lot more but validation requires actual test and this is where Russian ICF are not so cooperative as expected.. obviously no one wants to give away the raw data and the leverage to get such validation will always be costly ..

    a good comparision is this

    upload_2017-3-21_14-8-41.png
    upload_2017-3-21_14-14-2.png

    Its part of a report by H. M. Kristensen and M. G. McKinzie. The parenthesis ticks are capability under development or whose end results is uncertain.

    Notice Under India the MIRV with parenthesis and without any tick under H bomb (since we did not demonstrate it clearly in Shakti 2 but rather showcased it with a much smaller scale the same design). If you see Russia has almost everything except that Russian new designs and ICBMs are much slowly getting inducted and ageing missiles replaced or developed.

    This also gives a good idea from where we are looking to get the best possible help especially since we are focusing on SSBN and SLBM and France has focussed all its N arsenal via Combat aircraft and SLBMs+ALCMs.

    The ALCMs or ASMP-A of Strategic deterrance are mounted on M2000N-K3 at Istres Air base near Mediterranean Coast (about 2 squadrons) and Rafale F3 versions aircraft at Saint Dizier Air Base northeast of Paris. The M2000N-K3 will be replaced by Rafales as well. Beyond this lies a simple fact - Rafale -M deployed on the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier has also been equipped with the ASMP-A, although warheads are not deployed on the carrier in peacetime.

    The ASMP-A carries the new TNA (Tête Nucléaire Aéroportée) warhead, and the French military side has already begun to research a future replacement for the missile.

    Thus this is one of the strategic deals which we made.. Bcz Rafales under IAF and Rafales under IN will carry Strategic payloads as well and will replace the Jags and Mirages from land and add capability from sea based carriers. The new ALCM which i have said before will have the NG Indian warhead and will be approx 500-600 km range enabling Strategic asset deployment from both land and sea for combat aircrafts.

    Also the scaling of payload versus yield in the newer missiles especially SLBM will enable the SSBN essentially which are mini boomer to be far more lethal and carry assets to target much longer range with devastating effect.

    Thats why i have always referred Rafale deal to be part of a Air Sea Land cooperation
     
  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I am confident about my aircraft and I very strongly feel that there might be additional 36 Rafale ordered in future. I am not sure about Rafale-M. IN is far too judicious with its planning and far more prudent when it comes to spending its money.
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Over this weekend we did try out few new designs based on F22/35, J-20 etc and what we found was that LSA design remains unrivalled and unparalleled as a master piece. I have arranged the finances already and the job shud start much sooner than what most of you expect.
     
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  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes this dream is elongated by just 25 cms to carry a SCALP or a mini BrahmosNG internally. This combination will make it deadlier than any thing else as a strike platform at sea or on land. rafale-M is also limited to just one such missile. AND LSA too will be able to carry three of them-one internally and two on inner pylons and yet outrange Rafale-M.
     
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  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    We gain a lot, especially to have selectable yield warheads. We do not have this tech. It will be something like-one shoe fits all feet.
     
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  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I have a feeling, based on my interactions that If LSA gets off the drawing board, there may never be tender for more fighters for India for IAF or IN. I have been told to go for it and give it all and I am doing just that.
     
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  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    ICF and thermonukes are completely different.
     
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  15. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yeah, if your aircraft shows up, then Rafale will be capped at 72 and all tenders will be cancelled.
     
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