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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Getting Dassault's guarantee on HAL produced aircraft wasn't part of the RFP, it was added later during negotiations.

    The French claimed they have followed the RFP to a tee.
    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...-says-no-change-in-pricing/article6912230.ece
    “We are exactly in line with our answer to (Request for Proposal (RFP). This answer led the government of India to select L1 which was Rafale. And we have stuck to the same commitment which is totally in line and compliant with the RFP,” he told PTI here.
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's wrong, since the RFP is based on the DPP 2006 and warranty as well as liability clauses were included even back then. Not to mention that 2 different DM's and at least 1 IAF chief have confirmed that Dassault has to follow the clauses. So take that claim with a pinch of salt.
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It's funny that you say MKI doesn't have avionics for low level flight or terrain avoidance, but you still decided it is ready for nuclear strike.
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I didn't say it has, I said if at all that's what it needs to add for this specific role and low level deep strikes. That's also the main difference between a Su34 and a Su 35, besides the twin seat cockpit of course.
    All multi role Flanker are strike capable with pretty much the same basic features.
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I don't care about Russian aircraft. Their environment is completely different. The Su-34 is being prepped for nuclear strike, taking over from the Su-24.

    But in India, the MKI is not ready for nuclear strike role. It most likely never will be. Once Rafale starts coming in in good numbers, the IAF will most likely reduce the conventional strike role of the MKI also.
     
  6. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I don't think so because IN doesn't want paper plane.
     
  7. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Dassault never lost money on a deal.... (it's not like the sell of Leclerc MBT to UAE .... a very famous exemple in France).

    The risk for Dassault to take full responsability for the quality of Rafale made by HAL without the proper control was far too high. The level of exigence by Indian side was too big. In case of problem (and HAL is all but a nice and reliable partner) the futur of Dassault might have been compromise...

    Dassault said STOP.

    And Indian side had the possibility to deal with L2. They didn't choose that way. Because of the same probable end.
     
    DAC O DAC likes this.
  8. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    1) You can't compare a 40 years old trainer and a new fighter.
    2) BAe Hawk in india was made from CKD. Very different of what was requested in MMRCA.

    THE PROBLEM IS HAL. HAL is a problem even for India itself.... you know it.
     
    DAC O DAC likes this.
  9. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    VSTOL is not a valid source, my sources are several pilots flying the MKI, on average an MKI in fleet is hitting well over 280 hrs. Heavy utilization, delays in setting up of MROs, delays in spares related agreements with Russia etc. resulted in availability falling to below 50% in early 2015 since progress has been made, availability now is above 65% on average and will reach 75% early next year, this will the benchmark peace time availability, war time availability will be 90% for the first 8 weeks and then 80% for an additional extended period of 3 months.
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Pls do a bit of research about the overhaul of first SU-30 in India. My calculation was based on that. The first Su-30 went in for overhaul within ten years with less than planned utilisation.
     
  11. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Again with the BS, Dassault has been deceiving us since the beginning, if working with HAL was such an issue why did Dassault take part in it anyways. RFP since day 1 stipulated HAL would be lead integrator and the language about guarantees and responsibilities were laid out loud and clear. This is when the you know who 'B***h' along with some highly placed officials in one very large Indian conglomerate made a clandestine trip to a lovely resort in Italy meeting up with top folks at Dassault, Thales, Safran and hence a plan was hatched to ensure Rafale wins regardless of what happens. Actually St. Antony was the biggest stone in this shoe because of his very slow and painstakingly keen nose for corruption. Hence the delays, the twist and the counter twists. In the end Govt. changed, Modi/DM had to cancel MRCA since it was turned into a shit show. The prudent thing would have been to pit EF consortium against Dassault since those two camps were heated and competition would have ensured a better deal.
     
  12. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Pal, enough with the conspiracy stories !!!... The contract was signed with the present GoI and they HAD every opportunity to Stop this! , neither they canceled this not they - as you said prudent, pitted one consortium with the other. Since none of this happened - your argument is false

    ToT isn't the holy grail of aircraft procurement and this obsession should STOP. Case and Point is the Su30... though Majority is manufactured in india, Critical components are still imported - eg the Engines - the HAL Nasik division is only for over haul!!!!

    Another Example of ToT bunder is the Scorpene Subs, severely underestimated the Ability for MDL to absorb the tech and the delays is for everyone to see. Heck even the additional flight for the Talwar class is delayed for this very reason.

    Unless we have a robust IMC , that can absorb the tech as a quicker pace - that included both the private and public section. Complete ToT is from the beginning is Total BS!!! and prefer to start small.
     
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  13. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Till 2008, the overhaul schedule was set for 10 years or a thousand hours which ever came first, there was no overhaul facility or agreement for this to be done in India. Utilization in the early years 2000-2007 was around 180-200 hrs and hence many of the early birds had to go in for overhaul at 5-6 years already. This had to be done in Russia, the overhaul also took longer, production rate at HAL for new birds was still increasing. during overhauls of early aircraft it was found that the aircraft didn't need an overhaul at 1000hrs, the aircraft was flight worthy for another 500-600 hrs, hence schedule revised to 14 years or 1500 hrs which ever came first. From 2009 the Mig-23MF and Mig-23BN began phase out and hence a short fall began of over a 100 aircraft. This is when the utilization of MKI increased dramatically to around 250hr by 2011 to well over 280 by early 2015, many of the newer birds also ended up needing overhauls hence by late 21014 availability was even below 45%. Thankfully the Overhaul facility was up and running and their capacity gradually increased. Utilization also peaked because many of the Mig-29s also went into upgrade and the Mirage too was slow becoming unavailable for many months.
     
  14. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    The current GOI didn't have much opportunity to stop this, they were put in a shitty spot actually, on one hand IAF was crying, bickering for new fighters and on the other MRCA process was giant bucket of hot shit, hence this whole thing had to be cancelled. They made a stupid mistake of not making the process competitive between EF consortium and Dassault.

    I never obsessed about TOT so didn't attribute things to me that aren't. Also TOT blunder in the Scorpene case also mostly the making of the French. Sure MDL, HAL are not innocent in their ways but you are being silly to blame this entirely on them. HAL, MDL are essentially a reflection of how the MOD works.
     
  15. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    It's a short view of the facts.

    If the RFP was so perfect and without any point to be discussed, the winner had to be annonced with the name of L1... Govt would have said : "L1 is Dassault, its proposal is x billions, and the delivery will begin in 40 months (or 42 or ...)"

    And if Dassault decived India so much, why giving it a deal of 8 billions after? It's simply because the indian MMRCA way was not practicable.
     

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