Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,968
    Likes Received:
    1,461
    Country Flag:
    France
    Western country are working on plane from more than a century.
    During the 50's and 60's we made a lot of jet prototyps, with failures and great success...
    The road is long. You have taken it late, but with time you will succeed.
     
    LonewolfSandeep and DAC O DAC like this.
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    Yea, Saab signed $9.7B or something in offsets.

    Yeah, the jets are on order, but for a variant that doesn't exist yet. IAF is not confident.

    Apart from the 19 LCAs/year, if and when it comes, they are interested in simultaneous inductions of another fighter.
     
  3. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    12,301
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    Let the Mk.1A come, I am more than confident that it will be what the IAF wants and these Gucci hungry generals won't be able to get their way with an entirely different SE LWF if the MK.1A is a success.

    At 19 LCA/year the MiG-21 role can be entirely taken care of by 2027-30, the biggest gap that will exist then will be in strike fighters/DPSA with the phasing out of the MiG-27, Jaguars and M2Ks (from 2030 or so) and hence the focus will have to be on a twin engined MMRCA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    PARIKRAMA and Picdelamirand-oil like this.
  4. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    8,328
    Likes Received:
    6,264
    Country Flag:
    France
    It's why the French wants to revive Kaveri
     
    PARIKRAMA, Bregs and Abingdonboy like this.
  5. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    12,301
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    I've been saying it for a while, such a move is win-win; LCA's success is France's/Dassualt's success. LCA will only compliment the Rafale, a Gripen/F-16 buy by IAF (however unlikely it is) will always eat into the Rafale's slice of the pie.
     
  6. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    7,575
    Country Flag:
    India
    I for see biggest change of heart for all IAF and possibly IN folks also when they see LCA powered by Safranised Kaveri and the extended families of the Safranised Kaveri in future.. possibly in future Indian aircrafts or with private players with new designs..

    When they get those in hands, I am fully confident that the acquisition of more sophisticated platforms will become much easier bcz of the possibilities that the same Safanised Kaveri family may power that platform as well..

    The same will happen when our own Radars and possibly EW system also comes together with tangible WVR, BVR and UL BVR missiles (for HV targets/force multiplier) and stand off Air to ground munitions/missiles..

    The question is simply which OEM will make a deal which benefits us the most.. I for sure know partial codes (a very wide term and many may call it as good as "snake oil") for RBE2 AESA, Spectra and aerodynamic designing help+ RAM coating and missile motor + thrust vectoring is part of the deal.. yes it may be outrageous and ludicrous to many.. no where you will get tangible proofs except all saying "MAY" or "EXPECTED TO BE" words in the news paper items.. it's true that 16 technologies are part of this deal and we need to see with our offset implementation committee to certify if that is really done or DA and group did really sold us a "snake oil".

    If they did sell us "snake oil" the door to a multi billion dollar in 50 Bn + aircraft prospect is closed forever..

    If they do discharge the duty professionally and meets the requirements as stipulated in IGA and by the committee, it's a wonderful achievement.. and a big for France India relations..

    That means they always get first preference.. more Rafales.. more Safranised Kaveri powered LCA. More radars, EW, Missiles which are compatible to each other and forms part of common inventory..

    The chief question then is what any other OEM brings to the table.. to match or better the deal so that they get a share of this pie.

    Also it brings to the question why Dassault does not say ok let's try RBE 2 in LCA and let's see if we can have a EW system too and may be try Spectra (green present version).

    See I do feel French side does not fully understand and appreciate what they can do with LCA and kind of kill everything off and make them kind of dependent on Rafale and Dassault team for next 50 + years in two different categories and both single engine and twin engine dominance..

    It's true that safran is already planning the factory to manufacture engines in Goa so of course it's clear why they will make Safranised Kaveri a success and will become a serious and important player with their JVs and offsets.. they also going to do more in helo engine segment too..

    We should ideally see them in Radar too but here Elta and Saab radars and EW systems as well but again Saab and others are comepting..where DA should have pitched in and already one SP should have them for test .. I mean look Mirages are gone.. no production.. that radar in mirage is not for next 50 years..So why not make sure.. LCA is the place where we invest and make it a superb story and make LCA and Rafale and ideal combination for all the air forces where we can pitch in..

    That would have enabled their Dassault Reliance to happily become part of LCA ecosystem as well.. and it is and will be a unique win win situation...

    And this is an old idea.. I am sure many have said before.. and I believe I have requested @halloweene and @Picdelamirand-oil many times on this..

    I still feel it's a great story and humongous upside Potential ..Somewhere I still feel this is one part where France is missing big big time.. and DA team too.. and I reckon this might be a very costly mistake soon unless some changes we see asap...

    I hope this story does not end with a story of missed opportunities ... To that I certainly believe many folks should think a bit more than just profits upfront and look at a biz prospect which extends over next 50 years ..

    @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 001 @Sancho @vstol jockey

    Your thoughts on this pls..
     
  7. Bregs

    Bregs Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    724
    Country Flag:
    India
    In my personal opinion Indian Govt must not be such a big fool to sign 36 Rafales and look for other fighters, i am sure and optimistic that MII of rafales will certainly come. This could well be the start of start of Indo-French strategic defense partnership for decades to come. If Rafale was so costly for India then there was no need to sign deal for 36 fighters too. No doubt its costly but equally capable and formidable for the opponents it will face
     
    PARIKRAMA likes this.
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    Agreed that Mk1A will change things. But who in their right mind believes ADA's schedule?

    Nov 2014:
    http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ance-for-lca-in-june-2015-114111401826_1.html
    final operational clearance (FOC) in June 2015

    July 2015:
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...layed-till-next-year/articleshow/48152959.cms
    Final operational clearance for Tejas again delayed till next year

    May 2016:
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s-likely-by-year-end/articleshow/52302549.cms
    The FOC which was expected by mid-2016 for Tejas shall now come by year end or perhaps by 2017 beginning.

    Jan 2017:
    http://defenceupdate.in/lca-tejas-inches-closer-to-foc-crucial-trials-coming-up/
    The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme is heading towards the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) phase scheduled to be achieved by June this year.

    This is for Mk1 which they have been flying for the last 16 years. Only ADA can say for sure if this deadline will be met or not. Not the govt, not the IAF.

    2003
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-to-gradually-phase-out-mig_23s-(aug.-7).html
    Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of Tejas is planned by year 2006-2007 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by 2008-09.

    So imagine how it will be for a brand new variant that is yet to fly.
     
    PARIKRAMA, Sancho and Bregs like this.
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    And as simple math tells us, that's not half of the cost of our Rafale deal right?

    8.7 billion / 36 = 241 million per fighter
    5.5 billion / 36 = 152 million per fighter

    Again and again people mix up required offsets, for some that the OEM is providing out pure happyness to share. But that is neither the case, nor does it come anywhere close to what you speculated earlier about tech share.
    Also we still don't have any official statement, what the aim of the development / share of techs is. We only know that it gets some techs of the M88. But if the engine is aimed on 90kN, as it was earlier, it hardly offers the thrust of the GE414 that IAF already selected for LCA MK2. For AMCA it falls short, it's neither suitable for MKI nor FGFA.
    So if it comes only with 90kN it gets us an indigenous engine, that hardly has any use in a fighter, but at least it fulfills the offset requirements.
     
  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    Exocet / Scalp replacement was meant to be a joint one with the UK.
    The next EU MBT is most likely going to be a joint project and similarly expect the EF / Rafale replacement to be a joint project as well, especially if the EU is going for a joint military, with common arms and logistics in mind.
    DCNS is already pushing for the leadership for EU naval defence, while Dassault have to compete with Airbus (+Saab?) in the aviation field, which they obviously can't.
     
    Bregs likes this.
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    They never demaned the best, they demanded a medium class fighter, which initially meant Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29 and F16.
    The tender changed because new fighters were available and new technologies arrived.

    MK1 won't change anything, because it's just a compromise, to keep LCA in production, but it won't change the fact that it doesn't offer IAF what it wanted though MK2, counter the thrust deficiencies!
    Mk1A only solved some issues, but not all and fixing ISSUES are the important point about MK2 not spoiled demands!

    Would any Rafale or EF customer today buy new Rafale F2 or EF T2? Obviously not because both standards were up to date years ago, while today F3R or T3B are the state of the art. Similarly, you can't force IAF to take a fighter with capabilities that were planned and useful a decade ago, only because the development of the fighter were delayed so much.

    Can you name a single modern fighter that doesn't come with integrated EW? So what's wrong in demanding that?
    Similarly, when even South Korean T50s trainers are offered with AESA radars, let alone MMRCAs, why should IAF accept a pulse doppler radar?
    We can't blame them for the mistakes and failures of our scientists, nor can we ignore that buying 40 obsolete MK1 shows their commitment to the fighter, but anything beyond is dependent on the progress of the development and achieving development goals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  12. mugundhan

    mugundhan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    127
    Country Flag:
    India
    @Sancho no one knows what French are giving, there are rumours French are hardening the jets for nuclear delivery, even they are helping in nuclear technology. No country (except Russia) will help us in this field. @PARIKRAMA has already posted regarding this. You are respected member in this forum dnt compare other deals. we can only know hidden cause in deal only after 10 years or by insider leak.
     
    Sancho and PARIKRAMA like this.
  13. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    2,591
    Likes Received:
    4,845
    Country Flag:
    India
    For the tanks project , i am sure UKs ego will come in way. But yes France, Spain , Germany, Italy and Poland will in all probability come together to replace their tank fleets.
     
    Sancho likes this.
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    Including production and ToT? You missed that. Rafale comes with production as part of offsets.

    And the initial offer without customization for the Brazilians was $136M per jet. Not to mention, $1.5B for maintenance for 40 years for Gripen versus $4B for Rafale.

    The Brazilian deal included production and development of a twin seat jet.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    No, the tender changed because the threat changed. The MRCA was mooted in the mid 90s and the Chinese made great strides by then. They had placed orders for too many Flankers. Something the other jets were not suited for. So MRCA had its contours formed when 'medium class' jets did not exist.

    Plus, ADA had guaranteed delivery of FOC Tejas by 2006-09 thereby eliminating the need for a light fighter.
     
    Agent_47 likes this.

Share This Page