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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Doesn't it require codes of Radar?
     
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  2. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    See this GEM of an article from IDRW: ................:facepalm:

    India making fighter jet procurement very very complicated. Why are we unfair with Boeing?
    Published September 12, 2017 SOURCE: Arush singh / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG
    [​IMG]

    After a tedious MMRCA tender, with years of trials and all, the tender was scrapped. IAF is facing acute shortage of fighter jets and IN too needs more carrier based fighters. IAF needs another line of light fighters to replace MIG 21/27 fleet to fill the gap with a cheap, low maintenance and effective fighter. A good decision to fill the void as soon as possible.

    But, on what basis it was decided that a light fighter can be the one viz single engine? A light fighter should be classified based on it’s performance attributes, procurement and maintenance costs and not by it’s engine if the ultimate goal is to fill the gap with an effective fighter. In my opinion, it is an unfair and weird discrimination policy for defense procurement’s? Let’s take F-16 and F 18 for an example, the procurement cost of F 18, a twin engine jet is slightly more than F-16 but the maintenance cost of F-18 is the least among all Front line fighters in US Forces.

    It is well known Defense procurement involves very complicated ( and it gets even more complicated in India). Officials have to go through every detail to finalize a deal which takes years.But there is a simple principle in any defense procurement to minimize costs and logistics problems, you have to buy maximum possible numbers of a particular system.

    We know that procurement procedures are slow, tedious and time taking. So why we are planning to go through them three times? Why can’t we do them in one go?

    The Boeing F18 Super Hornet, is a well known twin engine jet viz operated by US NAVY and many Air forces across the world.

    Boeing is ready to shift it’s production line from USA to India to produce it’s BLOCK 3 variant. But why can’t we just give it a fair chance to participate in IAF’s light fighter tender? Yes, it is a medium multirole fighter but it’s procurement and maintenance costs are similar to F16 block 70 and Gripen NG. Moreover, if we select it for both 100 fighter requirement of IAF and 57 fighter requirement of IN, the cost per plane will go down drastically. The logistics problem by which Indian fighter fleet is plagued will be greatly reduced. Apart from indigenization, Boeing can help India realize all of its upcoming fighter projects much more smoothly than any other foreign manufacturer. Let us underline the areas in which India seeks foreign assistance and then I will tell you How Boeing can help in that area?

    1. Readiness for Make in India: Trump administration already said to US Congress that it will try it’s best to sell F16 and F 18 jets to India and will allow Make in India.

    2. Significant contribution to AMCA program: Boeing(earlier known as McDonnell Douglas) has already developed two stealth fighter prototypes: YF 23 ( considered stealthier than F22) and X 32 as competitors to F22 and F 35 in US service. Moreover, the aerodynamic design and the performance attributes of AMCA are similar to the YF 23.

    3. Fastrack development of Tejas (MK2 and MK2 NAVY): Boeing is world leader in development of carrier based fighters in my opinion and with Boeing’s assistance we can not only develop Tejas Mk2 Navy but also AMCA Navy much faster because BOEING already have the key know how of carrier based fighter operations and stealth technology.

    4. Maximum possible Transfer of Technology: BOEING have much more experience in India than any other American company and is trustworthy. Even though the extent of Transfer of Technology is a matter of another debate but a high level of ToT is expected alongwith offset contracts.

    5. Minimum Maintenance and Procurement: If you are looking just at the single engine tender, maybe you will say that procurement cost of F16 will be less than that of F 18 but if you add the tender for Navy, even the procurement costs of F 18 will be the same as F16.

    So let me get this straight, buying twin engine F18 block 3 jets is one of the most apt options for India not only from the point of view of cost, ToT, Make in India etc. But also the technology of the jet itself is astonishing. Some of the unique features found on the newest Block 3 F18s are:

    1. Conformal fuel tanks ( for extended range and improved stealth).

    2. Dedicated electronic attack variant ( EA-18 GROWLER).

    3. Ability to carry weapons internally in a internal weapons pod for stealth missions.

    4. Internally mounted IRST pod ( not occupying hard points on the wing).

    5. Especially designed frontal RCS reduction measures.

    6. Newly designed radar to counter stealth fighter. So, we can conclude that the new F 18 is a 4++ gen semi stealthy fighter having a cost comparable to those single engine fighters India is planning to procure.

    COST ESTIMATION:

    Although the amount of actual contract can’t be estimated, but by some analysis we can predict approximate amount. India has planned to spend 15 billion $ on 100 light fighters and another 15 billion $ on 57 carrier based fighters. But if F 18 is procured in both the tenders, it will cost around 23- 25 billion $ at most saving billions of $ and reducing a hell lot of logistics problems. We can use the money saved by this procurement into the very crucial fifth generation fighter development programs: FGFA and AMCA which are way more important than these stop gap fighter procurements. I hope the new Defense minister can take some strong decisions like as the above one suggested.

    Lastly, I want to make clear that all the fighter jets that are offered to India are very capable and the aim is not to promote one over the other. I am just trying to suggest a economical and effective solution.

    http://idrw.org/india-making-fighte...ed-why-are-we-unfair-with-boeing/#more-147435 .
     
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  3. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I Highly doubt we will be going in for the Gripen, it does not stand a chance. Sweden does not add any strategic value to us. Additionally all core components are US & EUROPEAN. Both US & India need each other to neutralize the China factor. Hence India +US + Japan + Israel axis will be the norm in the coming future.
     
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  4. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    The article is retarded on so many levels, not even worth replying to.
     
  5. Masterhunter

    Masterhunter FULL MEMBER

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    That all depends on what IAF wants and how much PMO is inclined towards F16.

    In my view, I prefer gripen if given a choice between F16/gripen.
    U can use F16 if u feel it has more chance. It doesn't make much difference to my numbers
     
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  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Even if they agree, we wouldn't integrate it, as long it doesn't meet the minimum capability of foreign counterparts. That's why LCA gets I-Derby and not Astra.
     
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  7. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    This assumption of yours is wrong. Our rafale's will be more superior to what the french are currently fielding. Our SU30MKI & Super 30 will be superior to Russian Su30.
     
  8. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Honestly i don't want NEITHER SE and would prefer work to continue on the LCA MK1/Mk1A/Mk2 program which includes the critical systems for eg the engine , Radar etc.

    TO STOP this silly selection process of the SE is the TOUGH decision that this Govt SHOULD TAKE!!!!!. and to by dangling the the F16 and saying we will get the F35??? really?? is that set in stone??? the Answer is NO. Why Built in india??? its not like we can built any number of frame we want ! ... there will always be a limit - do tell what will be done after that number is completed?? won't the line be idle?? Case and point the HAL Hawk line!! , what is it doing?
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The M-2000 is good enough to be operated until 2050. Even if better aircraft come up, there won't be an issue in operating it. What makes a fighter relevant is the avionics it carries.

    That's why even the USAF plans to push current F-16s all the way to 2060.
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    They will give it if they want the contract.
     
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  11. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What a mess has been made of this.

    DRAL

    IN and IAF get the Rafale in numbers, bring down operational and maintenance costs. Work with Dassault on UAVs. 200+ planes.

    HAL
    Dassault works with HAL to get the the LCA engine perfected. Pay them for the same. And get the Mark 2 out. HAL gets the FGFA. Provide the Indian Army with an Aviation brigade for offensive and CAS operations with the Advanced Hawk with stand off weapons.
    Tejas (all variats) - 200+
    FGFA - 100+


    TATA
    Tata works on the UAVs, transport planes and choppers. Sets up a second line for the Tejas.
    Tejas - 200+

    This will get the IAF 400 Tejas, 250 Rafales, 200 FGFAs. Plus the UCAVs and attack choppers.

    Future AMCA
    Make IN the lead service in this. Get DRAL, Tata/Boeing/LM and HAL/ADA/Mig to present an AMCA. Choose the best model and give contract to them. Of course, Dassault and Boeing will be asked to transfer tech to their Indian partners or they lose the contract. Add in SAAB to the mix to ensure the Americans and French offer the sun and the moon.

    This F-16/35 fetish is ridiculous. If this is the route Doval and Modi are thinking, they need to get their freaking brains checked. If this route is taken, the AMCA is dead. The MoD is making a mockery of the procurement. If the Americans really want to help, they should be asked to make an export version of the F22 available. Hey, we are paying moolah, not asking for defence aid.
    Why are these idiots hell bent on the F-16??????????????
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    IAF is not interested in more than 200 LCAs. 200+ F-16/Gripen are necessary.

    Although we need the F-16, we have no need for the F-35. Rather, the F-35's medium to high altitude performance isn't good enough for the IAF.

    AMCA won't die because it will come into the picture only after all these jets are done with production.
     
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  13. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    External tanks can be shaped like SCALP.
    AtoG Weapons can be stored inside external same shaped pod.
    AtoA missile (MICA NG ?) can be not like cylinders...

    [​IMG]

    easy, the frame remain thin for AtoA mission, not too expensive. A smart solution.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I'd pay to see a Rafale with CFTs carrying 3 EWPs with 4 BVR missiles each and 8 more missiles externally. 20 missiles.
     
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  15. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Most important imho, whatever will be the types of aircrafts will be networking them and other assets.
     
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