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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Gripen will be cheaper than F-16. PBL and simulators are not expensive.

    And customization is subject to the development status of the jet in question. Gripen has more equipment than Rafale, so the need for customization will be much lesser. For example, Gripen will come equipped with the Targo, funded by Sweden and Brazil, so we won't have to pay for its integration.

    The Brazilians have asked for integration of Litening, Reccelite and Spice on Gripen.
    http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/rafael-equipped-brazilian-gripen-fighter-spice-bombs

    Then we won't have to pay for an IR channel for Gripen like we did for Rafale's FSO because the Gripen already comes with IRST.

    In fact, I don't think we will have to pay anything extra except for Indian equipment and weapons.

    Our first Gripens will also come with GaN, at least for EW if not radar, while we will have to pay extra for the Rafales through a separate contract.

    But I have to admit the F-16 is a waste of time and money.
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Over the next 10 years we need 200-250 MMRCA aircraft. That's only 2027.

    Don't forget, we need 18 new squadrons if we are to get to 42 by 2032. Not counting the 7 squadrons IN needs.
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yeah. Saab is the best bet. We need companies that want to chase profits, not play politics. Saab is a for-profit company and Sweden is party to it.
     
    LonewolfSandeep likes this.
  4. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://idrw.org/boeing-flags-inexperience-of-indian-private-sector-strategic-partners/


    Boeing flags inexperience of Indian private sector “strategic partners”

    Published September 13, 2017
    SOURCE: Ajai Shukla / Business Standard


    In New Delhi on Thursday, the world’s largest aerospace corporation, The Boeing Company, openly expressed what many global arms vendors have complained about in private: The Indian private sector is not yet capable of manufacturing complex military aircraft under transfer of technology (ToT).

    Pratyush Kumar, Boeing’s India chief, proposed that highly experience defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) – like Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) – be coopted, since that is where aerospace expertise and experience lies in India.

    Speaking “from the vantage point of a company that has been in aerospace industry for 100 years, across the world”, Kumar in effect proposed a major reorientation of the defence ministry’s new Strategic Partner (SP) policy.

    The SP policy aims at creating capable defence manufacturers in the private sector, to compete with the DPSUs and Ordnance Factories (OFs) that have historically dominated defence manufacture in India. The SP policy requires private firms chosen as SPs to enter technology partnerships with nominated global “original equipment manufacturers” (OEMs), and jointly bid for contracts to build aircraft, helicopters, submarines and armoured vehicles for the Indian military.

    But Kumar, speaking at a seminar organized by the Centre for Air Power Studies, the air force’s think tank, pointed out that successful examples of ToT-based manufacture all involved “co-opting of public enterprise and private enterprise in a way that leveraged the investment made in the public enterprise for multiple decades”.

    The Boeing chief says he “tried hard, and could not find a single example [of successfully building an aircraft under ToT] where it was just the brand new private enterprise with limited aerospace experience. Look at Turkey, look at Japan, look at Brazil – look at multiple countries. In all cases there is a fine balancing act of co-opting the capabilities of both public and private enterprise.

    ” Other foreign companies are less forthright than Boeing. With two multi-billion dollar aircraft acquisitions already launched via the SP route – for single-engine fighter aircraft and helicopters – foreign OEMs have begun partnering Indian private firms. Lockheed Martin has partnered Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL); and Saab has partnered the Adani Group anticipating a tender for the single-engine fighter.

    This although TASL has never assembled an aircraft, while the Adanis have never built a single aerospace component. Foreign OEMs resent having to partner novices, but comply quietly so as not to rock the boat, says a foreign executive based in India.

    Boeing is more forthright, bolstered by the confidence of being the most successful arms vendor in India over the last decade. Since 2009, Boeing has sold India aircraft worth $12 billion. These include eight P-8I maritime aircraft in 2009, and then four in a follow-up order; ten C-17 Globemaster III heavy lift aircraft in 2011; and 15 Chinook CH-47F and 22 Apache AH-64E helicopters in 2015.

    While these were all sales of ready-built aircraft, Boeing is perhaps anticipating having to “Make in India” with an SP in another forthcoming contract– the navy’s multi-billion dollar acquisition of 57 ship-borne fighters for its aircraft carriers. In that acquisition, for which a tender is awaited, Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet would possibly compete with Dassault’s Rafale-Marine; Saab’s Sea Gripen and an upgraded version of the Russian MiG-29K/KUB.

    Aspiring Indian SPs, like TASL, admit that their role in an SP contract would remain “build to print”, i.e. manufacturing sub-assemblies and assemblies to blueprints provided by the OEM. Yet, it would provide a lucrative growth opportunity.

    “The need of the hour is for the ministry of defence to go forward with the two very large aerospace orders [for] single engine fighter and helicopters. Frankly, in my mind, there is nothing else to it”, said TASL chief, Sukaran Singh, at the same seminar.

    In contrast, HAL chief T Suvarna Raju talked up his engineers’ design skills and experience. Pointing to the range of helicopters HAL has designed ground-up – the Dhruv advanced light helicopter, Rudra armed helicopter, and the eponymous Light Combat Helicopter and Light Utility Helicopter – Raju declared: “Each component of our helicopters demonstrates the skill sets of HAL designers, of their capabilities and innovation efforts. Look at the carbon composite blades and the transmission system, composite body structure, glass cockpit and many more…

    ” The air force, however, continues to back the SP policy. “The only way to sustain the momentum in the aerospace manufacturing space is to start manufacturing here and strategic partnership model is a step in [that] direction”, said Air Marshal Shirish Deo, the air force’s vice chief.

    The SP policy has been in the making since 2014-15. It remains contested and a work in progress.
     
    Sancho and Blackjay like this.
  5. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Dandha karna hai, fir toh mujra karna padega. :badass::homer:
     
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    This argument is made by OEMs in order to keep most of the business with themselves. But people forget that even our PSUs started from scratch once upon a time and delivered. MDL built their first Type 209 submarines without prior experience too.

    No one is asking the Indian private players to do R&D. They only have to build from a blueprint. If the PSUs did it, so can the private players. So this argument can be easily dismissed.
     
  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    As usual, you got it all wrong! :disagree:

    He is not talking about privat industry vs PSU, but using both to leverage their advantages together!
    The SPM is focusing only on the privat sector, to finally get them investing, but leaving out PSUs isn't the answer either.
    He specifically points out that:

    Btw, we already see co-opting of TATA and HAL on the Do 228 NG, just as HAL outsourcing LCA production parts to privat industry is another example. Which is confirming what the Boeing chief said.

    P.S. RIL/HAL could had been a successful example of co-opting as well, if Dassault played along.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Did you know HAL outsources their part of the MKI work back to Sukhoi in order to meet deadlines? Who are you kidding?
     
  9. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Few excerpts from Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa Speaks On ‘Make in India’, Indigenous Production...
      • Our endeavour is towards self-sufficiency through focused, sustained and evolved indigenisation programmes.
      • Our future procurements are aimed at acquiring certain core technologies and developing
      • an ecosystem for manufacturing high tech defence equipment in India thereby ensuring that our indigenous defence industry grows.
      • Defence Sector is being opened up to private industry and foreign OEMs are being encouraged to set up their manufacturing centres in India through joint ventures.
      • Government is also trying to boost defence production in fields of Fighter aircraft, Helicopters and other weapon systems with involvement of Strategic Partners.
    On Tejas
    • LCA is a modern and state-of-the art combat aircraft.
    • LCA along with its variants, once fully operationalised, will enhance IAF capabilities in Light Combat Aircraft category.
    • IAF has been actively supporting the LCA development plan.
    • Induction of LCA is critical in arresting the drawdown of IAF’s fighter fleet.
    • Further, development of LCA will also usher Indian Aerospace industries to a highly complex and technology intensive field of combat aircraft.

    On Rafale
    • Rafale is a state-of-the-art multirole aircraft with its advanced systems and weapons with capability to dominate any modern day air battle.
    • Capabilities of Rafale include the most advanced radar, helmet mounted sight, superior avionics, electronic warfare and weapon systems which will provide IAF with better offensive, defensive and long range capabilities.
    • A high reliability factor and ability to operate in the most adverse situation with reasonable amount of success makes this a preferred aircraft for all kinds of future operations.
    • Rafale is the most modern fighter aircraft to be inducted into the IAF and it will give the IAF unquestionable edge over its adversaries.”

    On Infrastruture

    • Infrastructure is being created to meet the requirements of new inductions and various weapon platforms.
    • Existing infrastructure is being put into good use by modifications and upgradation.
    • Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure (MAFI) Project is planned for execution in two phases. Contract for Phase-I encompassing 30 IAF airfields was signed with M/s Tata Power (SED) on March 16, 2011.
    • Phase-I is planned to be completed in December 2017.
    • Upgradation of airfield infrastructure at 22 IAF airfields is planned in MAFI Phase- II.
    • The IAF is bolstering its defences in the Ladakh Sector as well and has plans to develop IAF airbases at suitable locations in this sector.
    • Eight ALGs were planned for development in North East Sector.
    • Six ALGs have been operationalised as on Decemeber 31, 2016 and work is under progress for the remaining two.
    • The ALGs of Passighat, Along, Walong, Mechuka, Tuting and Ziro have been operationalised.
    Source- Aeromag Asia- Sep-Oct 2017 Edition

    Chief Dhanao did not cover SE fighter at all in his interview.

    @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 001 @nair @Agent_47 @Picard @Picdelamirand-oil @vstol jockey @Gessler @randomradio @MilSpec @BON PLAN @CNL-PN-AA @Robinhood Pandey @Levina @Hellfire @GuardianRED @halloweene @IAF Fan @kaku @ashkum2278 @Nilgiri @Sancho @X_Killer @Angel Eyes @lca-fan @all others
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    It's all pretty generic.
     
  11. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Some real good PR answers right there lol.
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Translated

    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...e-lancer-un-nouvel-appel-d-offres-750184.html
     
  13. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    lol they actually had a referendum on military equipment purchases?

    oh boy you think politics is a shit show lol.
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    What's the point? They will put it to vote again and the people will reject it. :lol:
     
  15. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    LM marketing to the rescue.
     

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