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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    1) Some said to me and to some others that India will never took Rafale. They have disapeared from the forum until 13 months.... At least my personal opinion is better structured and aware than some others. :azn:
    2) MII, as MMRCA before it, request the seller and the buyer to found a common way to work. It's not automatic, as shown by MMRCA (ie if Rafale international found the indian requests are too excessiv, no deal. It also works naturally in the other sens).
     
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  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The very simple form of mathematics, using just a scientific calculator, can give you very good results provided you know what to calculate and how? having been a Sea Harrier pilot, I know the complete physics behind STOBAR launches.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Also called tender rules, which is what Dassault ignored and why they lost an order for 90 more fighters and just as they tried in Belgium as it seems.
     
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    @Picdelamirand-oil, I never denied your assertion that higher thrust is available without any problem from the present engines. But as per what has been posted by @PARIKRAMA, that thrust levels needs to matured to be offered as a viable option.
     
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  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It is already in the Navy offer, it will be deliver next year in Qatar Rafale, it will have mature a lot when deliver to India.
     
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  6. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    SE is in another class than Rafale.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You mean your ridiculous assertion that Falcon is connected to Rafale offsets? Dude, every day you make up shit.
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    How much thrust does the IN actually need? 83KN or 90+KN?
     
  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    83Kn will take the STOBAR launch weight to 23.5tons. The problem is not so much about twin engine thrust, the problem is about single engine performance shud one engine fail on take off after exiting ramp and before reaching the target speed at full load.
     
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  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    83Kn thrust takes Rafale-M to just about 23.5 tons of launch weight with just about 2 m/s residual rate of climb. Just like CAT launches where we give about 10-15 kts of additional launch speed to cater for "Sink off the Bow"and wind gusts, similarly, we need to apply a correction to STOBAR launch target speed which is generally 5-7kts higher and the launch weight must give sufficient protection for pitch variation which alters the ramp angle during launch. When I calculated the figure of 23.5 tons for 165KN total thrust of Rafale-M, I did not simulate 2* pitch variation during launch for sea state-4 conditions which is also a desired performance for a STOBAR deck based fighter.
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Rafale doesn't need to fly after launch! Its FCS allow to control even ballistic trajectory at very low speed and then you get more time to use the thrust and reach the fly speed.
     
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The STOBAR launch matrix is such that larger Alpha during acceleration, reduces the acceleration due to high drag. You need an alpha of about 8-10*. Rafale-M will need minimum of 12-13*for ramp launch and it does not have dedicated flaps, instead it has flaperons. One aspect which I did not include in the calculations is the Thrust x sine of body launch angle w.r.t horizon. Part of the lift comes from the engines and that reduces the target speed requirements but at the same time the acceleration also suffers. So the net effect is that there is gain only at the extreme end of the trajectory and not at the beginning of the trajectory. Rafale-M does have a good FCS but it won't help if the aircraft is unable to reach its target velocity for safe launch. FCS can help you get get best flight trajectory and maintain it very accurately for best performance but the final performance has to come from your engines and airframe only.
    N-LCA has FCS which allows hands free launch from STOBAR. And it maintains the target aplha very accurately but it still can't go with full load from STOBAR.
     
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  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Document coming fom the Rafale test pilot
    http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/essais-en-vol.pdf

    Translation

    On the low-speed side, the limit is 100 kt but 80 kt is sometimes carried out during the demonstrations in flight by pilots wishing to highlight the qualities of the airplane. A minimum of 15 kt was carried out in a combat exercise against Mirage 2000 by a vindictive pilot
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Brother, these are minimum control speeds and have nothing to do with deck launch speeds. If the aircraft could fly at such low speeds at full load, you will not need a catapult. The aircraft will not be flying level at that speed, it might be sinking rapidly but under full control.
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I don't have your attitude of talking without knowing, you just keep stating your opinions, based on a lot of hot air but that's it. That's why it's not surprising that you believe to know it better than Dassault themself. :mrgreen:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
    Blackjay and Agent_47 like this.

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