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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    126 - 36 = 100? :biggthumpup: Maths was not a requirement for his job.

    That's not an advantage, but the basic requirement! Delivery of the product 3 years after the contract is signed. And it doesn't even have much to do with DRAL, but with the production capacity of Dassault, since the first aircrafts in any tender with an Indian production line, will be supplied as kits, that will be produced at the OEM and assembled by the Indian integrator.

    So all the CEO repeated, was what the basic requirement of MMRCAs was for IAF and when the first fighter would need to be delivered, according to the tender requirements.
    But as he said as well, it's on the government now to decide which fighter they want and they, just as IAF prioritise the SE MMRCA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Definitely. But I don't think there will be any major movement on the Rafale front until MRCBF formally starts. Now, the future of Rafale in India hinges entirely on the navy. Without the navy coming on board, Rafale MII is a fairly expensive process. The only other alternative is if both the SE jets fail to qualify, but I don't see the Gripen not qualifying.

    Btw, it's not necessary that Tata or Adani will be selected as SP. Even Reliance can be selected as SP for SE MII. Do you see where I'm going with this? :D
     
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Translated

    http://www.air-cosmos.com/dga-les-programmes-decales-en-2017-102509

    So F4 funding issues and no DDM NG for Rafale M?
     
  4. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No: reorganisations but with the objective to maintain the launch of the programme at the end of 2018 (just after the delivery of F3R as it was already planned).

    In fact there is less money in 2017, and more money in 2018, because Macron wants to decrease state deficit under 3% in 2017. The increase in 2018 is because we have the objective to reach 2% of PIB for defense during Macron presidency, it will be 1.6 billion. So with 850 millions less in 2017 but 1600 millions more in 2018, the reorganisation take advantage of more money in 2018, to shift activities from 2017 to 2018, but its only preliminary studies so they will be closed at the end of 2018 to launch F4 program.

    Philippe Announces Unprecedented Increase in Defense Budget

    https://translate.google.fr/transla...edent-du-budget-de-la-defense.php&prev=search

    This 850 millions in 2017 was only because it was very difficult for Macron to change every thing in a short time to make a new budget, but for 2018 he has time to make a new budget reflecting his strategy.

    For DDM NG on Rafale M, it is for Rafale M fitted from F1 standard to F3 standard, these equipment will be bought in 2018 instead of 2017, in the mean time they continue to use they old DDM (In fact the DDM is plug and play so Rafale in opex have DDM-NG and Rafale at Chateaudun have DDM).
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
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  5. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Note: if you can't tell from context, "PIB" is French for GDP.

    For F4 program it's hard to say because it hasn't been formally defined yet AFAIK.
    The aircraft that were delivered in F1 standard are just about one quarter of the Rafale M fleet, IIRC.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  6. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    shame that general resigned in France. shoulda toughed it for a year. Macron seems to be doing good things.
     
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  7. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    @PARIKARMA long time no see, what's the latest on the rafale?
     
  8. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  9. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  10. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    India is far far from inking a SE deal.
    If you have a look at Rafale bargaining, it takes yearssss.

    There are two pb with this (possible futur) tender :
    - India takes too many times too choose. In other terms, you will never inked that tomorrow.
    - The two remainig competitors used US parts, and US is not keen to give you tech, specially under Donald administration.

    And, thirdly, it takes at least 3 years for long lead time items. Add that in this case you have to built a factory, found and check new indian suppiers.... So nothing less than 4 years.
     
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  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes but let's go to the fact to please to @Sancho (my source of fact is here : https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...e-road-map-for-single-engine-fighter-program/
    • At the end of August the NDA was planning to issue a request for information next month.
      we are in November, more than two months later and the RFI is not yet issued.
    • Then they expect three months to respond to the RFI.
      So now the answer is minimum in february 2018. Final selection will be made early next year, the IAF official added. (we hope so and it will be in May 2018)
    • An expression of interest, or EOI, will be issued to domestic companies in the next three to four months. So in August 2018
    • A request of proposal or tender will be issued in the next 16 months to the selected private player. So in December 2019
    • Ink the contract in the next three to four years. (December 2022 to December 2023)
    • So you have to add 6 years to your evaluation because it's impossible to sign SE deal today!
     
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  12. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    My hypothetical statement "if we sign SE deal today..." was just that - hypothetical.

    I meant to illustrate the fact of how much ahead the Dassault-Reliance JV is wrt building the local production capacity compared to Lockheed-Tata or Saab-Adani. Minimum 3 years ahead.

    Ofcourse - you have shown how long the SE deal could actually take in reality.

    @BON PLAN
     
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  13. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    But off the shelf initial 16 will arrive in the prior 2 years.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    The delivery is not important, but the fact that this "reorganisation" is based on funding issues of the government, that's why they delay upgrades and procurements as in the case of M2K and Rafale M, which were already defined. The F4 upgrade however was not fixed yet and funding issues can effect the content of the upgrade, even if the time line will be kept.
    Not to mention that this happened in earlier Rafale upgrades too and therefore needs to be taken with concern for the French forces at least.
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    I gave you a like for trying so hard, even you once again only proved my point that you are desperate.

    You not only completely went away from what Gessler was talking about (production time line of Rafale at DRAL), which would be exactly the same for Tata or Adani and the SE OEMs, if the same requirements of MMRCA remain.

    But you also failed to show any interest to, or reason for a Rafale production line, since you only pointed to the delays of the tender caused by the Indian government.
    The fact however remains...

    1) ...that the NDA government is the sole reason why Rafale is out of consideration for the MMRCA requirement...

    2) ...that IAF doesn't want Rafale for the MMRCA requirement as the Air Chief stated himself...

    3) ...that not even Dassaults own CEO tries to sell 90+ Rafales to IAF anymore, but only 36

    So it doesn't matter what fictional story you come up with, as long as the facts doesn't change!
    Either the government needs to include Rafale into consideration for the MMRCA requirement again, or the IN needs to select Rafale, to combine orders, that "maybe" justify an Indian production line.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017

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