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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

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    Will be a good deal for both macron but modi also in the lead up to elections, actually would be the sole major make in India success story. Without Rafale MII modi has little to show for his initiative.


    SE deal is entirely pointless with 200+ Rafale and 200+ LCA.
     
    GuardianRED and PARIKRAMA like this.
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Rafale MII is not a good idea. It's better to go for MII after F4 is made.

    Nothing the IAF does is pointless.
     
  3. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

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    Rafale MII needs to commence before 2020.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    I would prefer it begins in 2022 or 2023. Most people don't get it, if we start Rafale MII in 2020, then we will get stuck with hundreds of the older version of the Rafale, that's a terrible idea. It will make the program practically useless and also unaffordable.

    If we sign a MII deal before 2020, we will get 100+ F3R only. If we sign a MII deal after 2022, then it will be for 100+ F4. That's how our bureaucracy works. A single deal cannot transition from one version to another. We can't go for 36 F3R, then 36 F4 and then 36 F5 etc in a single deal, this will require three different deals, meaning three phases of negotiations. If we sign in 2020, it will be for the F3R and even in 2030 we will be producing F3R.

    The govt is making the correct decision. They are gonna go for a Gripen version that's more advanced than the Rafale F3R and then initiate Rafale MII after the next gen F4 version is ready.

    Until then, they can order 36 F3R to fill in the current bases. These jets can be delivered between 2022 and 2025, until F4 becomes available. It's fine if they are assembled from kits in India, if not it's still okay, we will still get offsets. It looks like this is what they are planning to do.
     
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  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I've said that Dassault will begin MII with the next 36. It means it doesn't ask for 90 anymore to begin MII. So next batch could be F4 version and the following MLU version and the following Rafale NG version.
     
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  6. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    While all what you've posted is well taken , how will the IAF account for the shortfall in its FA till then ? LCA MK1A will fill in 83 of those depleted squadrons , LCA MK1 around 40 ( sub par performance by any yardstick ).No news on LCAMk-2. FGFA is in trouble .Development work on AMCA is yet to take off . Sukhoi MKI seems to be capped at 280 odd jets .No news on the Super Sukhoi upgrade ( will comment on @PARIKRAMA post only when we see his predictions come true though he's been more accurate in his readings of the situation than most commentators I've read here on in other forums ) SE FA , again yet to take off .Where are the nos in the interim going to come from ?
     
    Shekhar Singh, Blackjay and PARIKRAMA like this.
  7. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Will have to see the next budgetary allocation to IAF to make a guess. As far as replacing the Mig21,27 squadrons Gripen is an ideal choice IMHO. IF and only IF SAAB agrees to replace the F414s with Safranised kaveri (IF it gives the required TWR) as this possibility does not exist with F16. This will greatly enhance the prospect of SAAB.

    Future Tejas orders beyond the 83 mk1a could also have same Safranised kaveri engine.

    Need expert views.
     
    Sathya, Shekhar Singh and PARIKRAMA like this.
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Well make in India doesn't mean a production line of Rafale fighters. Producing parts of it or the Falcon fits the bill too, as confirmed now. Not to mention that Dassaults CEO was asked about the number of orders needed to start a production line:

    http://www.livemint.com/Industry/jM...orm-joint-venture-for-defence-manufactur.html

    Keep in mind that he was asked about the 57 that IN might buy and if that order would be enough for an Indian production line and that we know what he stated earlier this year too:

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...-india-says-dassault-aviation-ceo/364474.html
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Yes, this is what France does as well, the best way to buy Rafale.

    The older method of giving a single large deal is a huge problem for India. We saw that with the Su-30. New technologies had to be added separately during overhauls which makes it very expensive.

    Each tranche can progressively add production. I mean I don't think we will be making fuselage and wings on the second tranche, but perhaps it can start from the third tranche.
     
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  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    My wishlist:
    First half of modernization
    LCA - 123: By 2025
    Rafale - 72: By 2025 ... All F3R.
    This will add 195 jets in just 8 years. These are your interim numbers. Pretty much guaranteed to happen.

    Second half of modernization
    SE MII - 140+: Start from 2025 and end by 2032.
    Rafale: 144: Start from 2025 and end by 2032... F4 and MLU.
    This will add 284+ jets in the following 7 years.

    PAK FA Stage 2: 63 by 2032... Flyaway from Russia.

    Total jets added would be 542 jets by 2032.

    FGFA should be PAK FA modernization program, not simply a MKIzed Stage 2.
    Rafale NG should be developed in conjunction with AMCA, so we can use the Rafale avionics in it, it will save both countries a huge chunk of money and time.

    This is my wishlist, but reality could be different. Like, FGFA numbers may be 127 and Rafale numbers may be about 60 jets lesser in the second half.
     
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  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Things change.... The next 36 will be complete MII in India, the two Rafales that will be built in India at the end of this batch are intended to train Indian employees, for them to be able to produce fully the Rafale in India, including airframe, engine, Radar, cockpit, etc
     
  12. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Are you sure? If true then 100 more Rafales including the naval version is very much on the mat. What is the update on Safranised Kaveri engine?
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    If Dassault is initiating MII with just 36 jets, then the govt must have assured tranche orders.
     
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  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The navy have their heads in the clouds if they think the Rafale-M will be operated on the cheap on Russian carriers. Ask @vstol jockey.

    Rafale MII can survive on its own with just IAF orders.
     
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  15. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Rafale-M will be operated on the cheap on Russian carriers.
     
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