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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes now it's different, Rafale is out, for a large order. Congrats to Dassault!
     
  2. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    :p :p u still think that after so many media reports of..`larger cooperation, more orders, push by dm....`and you read that report in which saab and lm is willing to provide only 49% tot.? So why India would select griffin, when France is willing to provide so many things and joint patrolling in Indian ocean and larger cooperation against China
     
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    1. I don't consider unnamed reports as reliable

    2. All official Indian and even French sources confirm IAF wants just 36 more Rafales as suppose to 90 more, to get the full MMRCA requirement

    3. The larger cooperation the French DM was talking about, was not aimed on Rafale specifically or on IAF, but on the naval field, where DCNS will have good chances in the P75I tender (which I have stated several times too) and on cooperations between both navies

    4. I hope they will select Gripen, because I don't want another political deal for F16, which sadly is possible. But that has nothing to do with Rafale, since it's not under consideration for the larger IAF requirement anymore!
     
  4. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://idrw.org/india-could-have-doubts-about-russian-fifth-gen-fighter-buy/


    India Could Have Doubts About Russian Fifth-gen Fighter Buy

    Published November 8, 2017

    India could be about to re-examine its decision to acquire fifth-generation fighters from Russia, after the Indian Air Force (IAF) produced a report questioning the reasoning behind the program.
    A number of Russian media reports in late October stated that India will decide not to press forward with participation in the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program. The aircraft proposed by the Russian United Aircraft-Building Corporation (OAK) is a variant of the Sukhoi Su-57/PAK-FA incorporating a long list of design changes specified by the IAF to comply with its requirements.
    Both Russian print and online media and Echo Moskvy radio reported that the official IAF report has criticized the concept of continuing with the program. Among other findings, it states that the Su-57 design is compromised by being based on obsolescent technology. There are also questions about the overall cost of the program, since India would be required to commit some $6.7 billion to proceed to the next phase.
    The overall assessment of the IAF report is that the FGFA would never be an aircraft in the class of the U.S. Lockheed Martin F-35 and that the maintenance costs would be prohibitively high. One of the chief concerns with regard to maintenance is that the engine currently flown in the Su-57 is the Saturn 117S/AL-41F1 design. The Indian report criticizes the engine for being too expensive to operate as it is not a “modular design.”

    COMPARISONS WITH F-35
    For their part, Russian industry officials said this is not a credible position and “this [engine issue] is a long-running Indian complaint.” IAF used the same rationale several years ago to exclude the Mikoyan MiG-35 from the M-MRCA competition before the final down-select.
    The other Russian response is that the long-promised follow-on, fifth-generation engine for the Su-57–referred to as Izdeliye 129/Engine No. 30–was to be flown in one of the Su-57 prototypes before the end of this year. This engine is supposed to weigh significantly less, operate at higher fuel efficiency and have fewer moving parts, but details about its true status remain sparse.
    Russian military technology commentators also state that the Indian assessment of the F-35 as a superior aircraft is not an honest one and that its initial design requirements have compromised its performance characteristics.
    “The main focus in creating the F-35 was made on the basis of two main requirements: short takeoff and landing, as well as the stealth technology. The first aspect makes the plane a single-engine aircraft that can actually take off and land vertically on a short air strip. The stealth technology degrades flight quality and provides for a number of other restrictions,” said Aleksei Leonkov, from the Russian military publication Arsenal of the Fatherland. “If we compare the performance and combat capabilities of the F-35 and Su-57, the Su-57 leaves the U.S. aircraft considerably behind,” he claimed.

    OWNERSHIP COSTS
    Indian aerospace specialists maintain that, performance issues aside, there is a larger concern within the MoD that the FGFA program could turn out to “become another sinkhole of money greater than the 1990-era Su-30MKI.” Their concerns are based on the many open-ended questions as to what the complete costs will be for a new engine, as well as the many other design changes that the IAF originally recommended after a requirements team inspected the initial T-50-series prototypes in Russia.
    The public understanding of the program in India is also not complete, say some of the same specialists. “The 36 Dassault Rafales that India procured after the demise of the M-MRCA program had a total cost of $9 billion. The commitment that Russia is asking for on the Su-57 is $6.7 billion, for a program that will produce around 130 aircraft,” explained one Indian military aerospace analyst.
    “From the public perspective, people look at those numbers here in India and get the impression that the Russian offer is a real bargain: 130-plus aircraft for $2.3 billion less than the price of 36 Rafales. This is what they think,” he explained. “But what no one realizes is that the $6.7 billion pays only for the program set-up costs and the production of the initial four FGFA prototype aircraft. The 127 aircraft to then be license-built in India will be at least another $135 million apiece, which is another $17.1 billion on top of the initial $6.7 billion outlay.”
    The final numbers put the per-unit cost of the Su-57 at $183 million compared with $250 million for the Rafale, although the same Indian analysts suggest those comparisons are not “apples for apples.” There are additional costs for weapons systems and other infrastructure expenses that are not folded into the estimate for the Su-57. However, those line items are included in the price tag for the Rafale program, they say.
    “The Su-30MK was an existing, working airplane in the Russian Air Force, and turning it into the Su-30MKI was not a huge leap in capability,” said the same Indian military aerospace analyst. “Even those comparatively modest enhancements cost more than $700 million,” he added.
    “The big worry for India is there is a much greater distance between the Su-57 as it exists today and the requirements for the FGFA, and there is no reliable methodology to predict that cost for closing that gap,” concluded an analyst who chose not to be named.
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Half of it is exaggerated, the other half is BS.
     
  6. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    During first 6months of 2016 some of this forum explained, like you now, that DA will never inked a first deal....

    You know the rest of the story. It will be the same with you.

    Mark my words.
     
  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...a-grounds-mig-29s-and-rethinks-future-fighter
     
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  8. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    randomradio and Gessler like this.
  9. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    @PARIKRAMA

    Now that it seems the Indo-French defense cooperation is set to spread into all kinds of fields (not directly related to Rafale anymore), I think sooner or later we'll need a new sticky thread to keep track of the various statements from officials, pointers from articles, and inputs from members who have an inside track on the events.
     
  10. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Google translate:

    "
    At a public meeting on October 24 in the Senate, the French Minister of Armies said that the question of the replacement of Charles de Gaulle would be integrated into the next LPM. "From the next military programming law, we will have to launch studies to renew this aircraft carrier component. It will be necessary at least to prepare the succession of Charles de Gaulle which should be removed from active service by 2040, and as for the question of whether or not to have a second aircraft carrier, this will part of the work that we will have to do as part of the preparation of this future military programming law, " said Florence Parly.

    Responding to a question from Senator Philippe Paul, the Minister recalled in her remarks that the aircraft carrier is "a major tool of naval combat" and that several nations are in the process of acquiring it: "The resurgence of the power states is translated right now by the construction of many aircraft carriers in the world, China, India, the United Kingdom ... This observation reminds us that aircraft carriers are exceptional military tools that not only provide a projection capability to the land, but also a capacity for autonomous acquisition of intelligence and especially control of aeromaritime spaces. It is also, and it is not negligible, a political tool because it is a tool with very high media visibility that is also a tool of credibility vis-à-vis our allies. The recent operations that we have been able to conduct in the Mediterranean with our American allies attest to this ".

    The studies that will be conducted in view of the replacement of the Charles de Gaulle will in particular determine the capabilities that will offer his successor, the size of the future building, which will undoubtedly be more imposing, and the problem of its propulsion, nuclear as it is. is the case today or conventional. Among the major technological challenges of the project, there will include the integration of new electromagnetic catapults, to replace the traditional steam equipment, or the implementation of combat drones in addition to piloted on-board hunting. "
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    GuardianRED and PARIKRAMA like this.
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I don't think they want to lease single engine jets, they want to buy them outright. They want to replace their F-5s with this jet. This requirement is very old.

    And I think their main interest is buying western jets. So either the F-16 C/D or the Gripen C/D, in case Saab restarts production.

    They can probably add Malaysia to this list.
    http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2017/05/09/saab-three-really-good-opportunities-for-gripen/

    But I think they will replace their Fulcrums and Hornets with twin engine jets, Rafale F4 is my bet.
     
  14. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
    Angel Eyes likes this.
  15. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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