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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    ?
    the last comparison was made by Netherlands air force, between a paper F35 and a Rafale.

    This paper F35, affordable, supercruising, agile as a F16, won by 0,02 on a 10 max note.

    How "costs" afforbability? how costs supercruise? how costs agility? Sure more than 0,02 ....
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Elections are coming and that again will hurt the modernisation of our forces, when politics gets priority. :tsk:
     
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  3. Shekhar Singh

    Shekhar Singh 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Dont worry sir, Just after humiliation in Gujarat election they will be searching a valid reason for justification of Pappu's upcoming Vipashyana tour.
     
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  4. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Rebuttal

    The BJP hit right back, with its spokesman GVL Narasimha Rao claiming that the Congress party was engaging in a "stunt" by raising the Rafale issue as it was scared at the prospect of its top leadership, including the Gandhis, being questioned in the VVIP chopper scam.

    He said after the arrest of middleman Carlos Gerosa in Italy last month and his likely extradition to India soon, "the Congress has made baseless allegations over Rafale deal to divert public attention and to cry political vendetta".

    "None of these stunts will work and the Congress must be ready to answer who took bribes in the AgustaWestland VVIP chopper deal as the money trail is going to become known after the extradition of Carlos Gerosa," he told PTI.

    "Modi government is known for integrity and all its actions are above board, while the Congress party is synonymous with sleaze, corruption and crony capitalism," he said.

    Full article
    http://www.firstpost.com/india/cong...tention-from-agustawestland-case-4209747.html
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    =>

    http://aviationweek.com/defense/seal-f-35-deal-uae-must-agree-protect-sensitive-information

    https://www.thenational.ae/uae/government/uae-set-to-upgrade-mirage-2000-9-jet-fighters-1.675751

    Good for the UAE, bad for Rafale.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 12:10 AM
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    What if I tell you the Rafale will be able to kill the F-22 and F-35 without either jet being able to do anything about it? Yes, it is physics. The Gripen C radar can pick up the F-35 now. It is all about how the software uses the said laws of physics.

    First you need to know the basic stealth technique that the Americans have used (which is failing). Every radar has a clutter rejection threshold. Clutter for an air defence radar can be anything that's not related to an aircraft, it can be birds, leaves etc. And every target has a radar cross section, ie a target echo. So what the Americans have done is reduce the aircraft's target echo to match that of birds, leaves etc. What this means is the radar can detect birds, leaves etc, but because of the threshold, the radar assumes the target echo of the F-22 is a bird or a leaf and rejects it. That's American stealth.

    What the Swedes did is they removed the clutter rejection threshold. They instead made a lot of other software improvements that allows the detection of birds, leaves etc that are also moving really fast. There is no bird or leaf in the world that can travel at 400+ knots. Doing this is extremely difficult, but they did it.

    About French stealth. Now, stealth is mainly about radar detection. You prevent your radar from detecting you, you have achieved stealth. So while the American stealth works by reducing its own target echo, the French stealth works by removing the target echo from a returning radar signal. both achieve the same purpose. What the French did is they reduced the Rafale's RCS to a small enough value without breaking the bank and they limited the aircraft's echo to a few spikes. With extensive testing, they figured out what a radar sees when it is looking at the Rafale from a particular angle. Using that information, any radar signal generates a response from Spectra, the response carries information that eliminates target echo.

    So all the 0.000...s can be achieved for Rafale as well. And what's more, unlike the F-35, which has a fixed RCS, the Rafale's RCS reduction measures keep improving. This is the reason why the French plan on using the Rafale even after 2035 as their main air superiority aircraft while the Americans are reduced to saying their own jets are going to be useless pretty soon.

    This is the reason why the French opened the Libya War on their own, without SEAD/DEAD. No one has ever done that.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    It's a GTG deal, nothing of the sort will happen.
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    RIL was a tier 1 supplier during MMRCA.
     
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  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's wrong for many reasons. It starts with the fact, that there is no country specific way, but that either design or electronics are used to divert or change radar returns. Rafale has plenty design features, that were meant to reduce or divert radar signals as well, the EW jamming modes only adds to them.

    Stealth design is aimed to "divert as much of the incoming" radar signals, while using jamming modes, is aimed at "changing the returning" radar signals to trick the enemy radars.

    Diverting the signals however is dependent only on the stealth design, while changing the signals is dependent on many factors. You need to detect and analyse the incoming signal and emit an outgoing signal in the right phase to change the radar return. That from all angles, which gets even more difficult if you increase the reflection area with external payloads. Not to mention that you need sensor capabilities around the fighter to emit the signal too.
    Add a war scenario where, not 1 but multiple different radars, from different directions are sending signals and you have a problem to efficiently change the radar signals all the time.
    That's where stealth design, that is aimed at diverting signals is more efficient.
    A conventional fighter with jamming modes still will try to use stand off range weapons, to kill it's targets from safe distances, while a stealth aircraft, can get closer to the target with less risk of detection. That's the difference between Rafale and the Neuron UCAV!

    Also nothing prevents a stealth aircraft from using jamming modes too, but you can't simply add stealth to a conventional design. That's why upgrades have their limits for Rafale, just as the F18 Silent Hornet now shows now.
     
  10. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  11. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    One of the main reason that French plan to use Rafale even after 2035 is that they dont have the requirement nor the money to have a new plane. A never generation plane will be about twice as expensive as last generation, The French are finding it hard to purchase Rafale and if they go for the next gen plane you can understand what happens to France. France is not having direct conflicts so even if they use an early 4th Gen plane like Mirage 2000 that is saving money and they are doing that.
    To justify high price of Rafale the Rafale supporters are talking of SPECTRA, Spectra is form of Data Fusion of many sensors and Rafale is not the first nor the only one having that. When the Rafale fanboys are stuck at question of SPECTRA, they come up with "SPECTRA is confidential" else for all other BS they are very knowledgeable about SPECTRA.
    Further, IT is true that the Americans have designed their plane as per the shaping for gaining VLO and its possible that Gripen Radar software uses different logic to detect it, but why do you assume that Electronic based Stealth if foolproof? Rather Electronic stealth would be more easy to detect, Just have to use the right logic. As many members say that Rafale achieves that by sending radar signal out of phase. It is an example not closely related though, the concept is similar to working of Balanced headphones, All you need to do is tweak the program the logic just to make the so called electronic stealth obsolete.


     
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  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    :lol:

    There is a possibility they will end up with a FCAS program with UK and a FCAS program with Germany.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-and-france-agree-on-interim-fcas-work-432509/
    The British and French governments have signed an agreement to begin a new interim phase of the bilateral Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme.

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...to-build-their-own-5th-generation-fighter-jet
    France and Germany have announced their intention to work together to develop a new advanced "European" fighter jet.

    So that's at least one next gen program in the offing. Most likely both will happen because one is unmanned while the other is optionally manned. (@Picdelamirand-oil @halloweene @somedude @BON PLAN?)

    However if you assume that the Rafale is as good as the F-35 and will only get better, then it becomes obvious that there's nothing wrong with the French plans to use the Rafale in the post 2030 world as well.

    It appears you don't know what Spectra is.

    Nothing is foolproof.

    Please explain the tweaks necessary.
     
  13. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I will tell you it is BS.
    BS
    BS
    BS.

    What you need to understand is that 'stealth' is not a feature of aircraft. The correct term is low observability. The aim of 5th Gen's is not to cover the aircraft with an invisibility cloak but to reduce its signature enough to detect the other guy before you yourself are detected hence providing a 'first look, first kill' advantage.

    Removing the clutter rejection threshold only means that you will be able to detect the aircraft at maybe 20-40 kms depending on radar power instead of gawking at your empty radar screen in disbelief for not being able to locate the 'stealth' plane which your own eyeballs can clearly see. The radar equation doesn't magically disappear based on your hopes and dreams.

    [​IMG]

    This is French stealth

    [​IMG]

    Hmmm Looks strikingly similar to American stealth.

    Looks like the newer French designers also screwed up what their predecessors managed to so handily achieve without all those deflect angles and internal bays


    [​IMG]

    Mon Dieu! So many stealth!

    The rest of the world including USA, Russia, China, Japan, UK, Korea are idiots for making 'shaping based stealth'. All the F-35 partners and even India the 'Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft' customer screwed up by taking to Lockheed propaganda. Only the French know the true secret of stealth!
    BS
    BS
    They don't have any SEAD/DEAD capability
    No they don't plan on any such thing. They are already working on 'Future Air Combat' systems, trying to form partnerships with other Europeans to make their own 5th gen fighter which will ultimately come out depending on politics and economics. Which puts to rest all the laughable claims of Stealth Rafale.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 6:46 PM
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  14. sameer chaudhary

    sameer chaudhary IDF NewBie

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    France President Emmanuel Macron to visit India early next year. We are in the process of forging defence and security agreements in relation to India pacific and Indian ocean: Alexandre Ziegler,French Envoy to India

    French foreign minister to visit India on Nov 17. We are in the process of forging defence and security agreements in relation to India pacific and Indian ocean: Alexandre Ziegler,French Envoy to India

    Source: ANI Tweets.
     
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  15. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 6:38 PM
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