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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    i too feel the same way, if thats true..& to catch a small fish we have missed out large fish.
     
  2. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    You forgot another issue : HAL required 2.7 times more man hour to produce parts of Rafale. At the end it was more expensive to produce in India with HAL than from Merignac...

    Dassault products are worldwide recognised for their quality and service life. They didn't want to accept a deal were they loose money and where their reputation was in danger. Have you ever seen a Rolls Royce made by Tata ?
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Which is exactly the reason why you send MMRCAs or MKIs, because you don't know the threat level!
    If you know that it's just a weather ballon or if a civil airliner is not responding anymore, then you send basic fighters to do the job.

    More over even you say that an LCA with an IRST would be useful, which is a capability that it doesn't have, but was required for MMRCAs, which again would confirm why more capable fighters are needed.:smile:
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    https://thewire.in/198840/rafale-deal-modi-must-use-opportunity-clear-air-transparent/

    Excellent article, finally someone who asks the right questions!!!
     
  5. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Shekhar Singh, Ironhide and Bali78 like this.
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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  7. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    As a prime minister, he took his responsability and agree to ink a short but direct and urgent order. Some may not appreciate, but it's part of his prerogativ.

    Without any Modi initiative, no plane would have been ordered yet, because of India bureaucracy and political game.

    In less than 2 years the first rafale will land in India.... And you need it.
     
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  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    And because he is the prime minister of a democracy, he is bound to rules and procedures as well. The cost issue or the fact that Reliance was part of the trip is not a big deal and hyped for political reasons. But the reasons why this bad deal was made, instead of what the Mod and the IAF actually wanted and under what circumstances must be investigated, because it put IAF and the country in deep trouble.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  9. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    https://newspuddle.com/rafale-jets-bought-at-16-lower-price-than-upa-deal/


    [​IMG]


    Rafale jets bought at 16% lower price than UPA deal
    22nd November 2017 News Puddle

    Rubbishing Congress’ charges of wrongdoing in Rafale fighter jet deal, the authority clarified that this is a fictitious assumption of a side that sat on the deal for almost a decade ignoring the important nationwide security issues.

    Top sources in the security organization stated that the cost of the government-to-government deal with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets was almost 16 per cent lesser than what the previous UPA authority is projecting with ahead weapons and avionics. Prime Minister Narendra Modi, concurrently his social call to Paris in April 2015, declared that India would be buying 36 Rafale fighters from France in an inter-government deal. After five rounds of negotiations, the deal was finally signed by the two armament ministers in Delhi in September 2016 for 36 fighter jets for Rs 58,000 crore.

    Congress vice-president Rahul Gandhi terming this deal as a scam has been raising this issue and putting onus of asking questions on this to Prime Minister Narendra Modi. The Congress’ communications department head Randeep Surjewala had alleged that the authority neglected the interests of public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of Rafale aircraft refused to transfer technology to it and instead entered into an agreement with Reliance Defence.

    He further alleged that the aircraft was being purchased at much higher rates than what was decided after the completion of the tender process under the previous UPA government. Surjewala stated the UPA authority floated a tender on August 20, 2007 for purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Air Force and, post negotiations, two of them — Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon were shortlisted.

    On December 12, 2012, Rafale was declared L1 vendor, the bidder whose quotation is the lowest, with base price of Rs 54,000 crore. “It was decided that of the 126 aircraft, 18 would come in fly away condition and the remaining 108 will be manufactured in India by HAL with transfer of technology,” Surjewala said.

    The authority sources further stated that the Indian Air Force will get the aircraft with far ahead long scope missiles along with 75 per cent availability at all times as opposed to the present one,w hcih is only 50 per cent. There will further be a guarantee of getting spare parts for the fighter jets for 50 years. Time frame for supplying is further better. Sources added that after one squadron of Rafales as per the prior tender had to be acquired in fly-away conditions, the govt decided that it would buy two squadrons to meet the bare minimum requirements of the force.

    There are 16-18 planes in one squadron. The sources stated that now with the Rafale coming in 2019, the Indian Air Force can buy more planes of global standards by doing proper due diligence. The deal made by the NDA authority has further ensured that the French bring help for the programme for 10 years, the sources added.

    Rahul Gandhi further asked why PM Modi bypassed experienced HAL and gave the deal to AA rated businessman with no armament experience. Reliance Defence stated its subsidiary Reliance Aerostructure and Dassault Aviation formed a joint venture – Dassault Reliance Aerospace after a bilateral agreement between two private companies and “the Indian authority has no role to play in this”.

    Reliance Defence claimed that the authority policy of June 24, 2016 allows for 49 per cent FDI in the armament sector under the automatic route, without any preceding approval.

    “No approvals from the Union Cabinet or CCS were required for the formation of the aforesaid joint venture company under the automatic route,” it said, brushing aside the Congress’ charge that Prime Minister Modi promoted interests of a group.

    Sources stated that as of now there is a deficiency of fighter aircrafts and the gap needs to be filled. The authority is not responsible for an offset contract between Reliance Aerostructure and Dassault Aviation as this is between private company and vendor.

    Sources further justified the urgency to buy the fighter aircrafts as number of squadrons of IAF fighters had gone down to 33 instead of required 42. The Indian Air Force has frequently signified to the political organization of requirement of at least 42 squadrons of fighter jets to protect its northern and western borders with China and Pakistan.

    The then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had flagged this issue with Prime Minister Narendra Modi to urgently address the concerns of IAF commanders.

    In an additional two years, IAF is going to be defeated an additional 14 squadrons of MiG 21s and MiG 27s. The IAF banks on British-made Jaguar and French-made Mirage 2000s, Su-30 MKI and MiG 29s. An upgrade of the Jaguar fighters being carried out by HAL has been delayed.

    ReportIndiaSanjay BragtaDNANew Delhi
     
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  10. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://thetruepicture.in/rafale-new-deal/


    Rafale: The What and the Why of the New Deal

    November 22, 2017

    [​IMG]

    The Wire article “Modi Should Explain How Rafale Deal Went From ‘95% Complete’ to Zero in Two Weeks”, published November 22, 2017 and written by Ravi Nair, raises questions about the Rafale deal signed between India and France in September 2016. The writer asks why the current government did not go ahead with the “old deal” and alleges the involvement of vested interests of private players. The Wire story does not really talk about the economics of the deal, or the specifics of it, although its main allegation is that due process was ignored by the Prime Minister is pursuing the new deal. Let us, therefore, get straight to the facts.

    “Old deal” Not Really a Deal
    To begin with, there was no real “old deal” that the article keeps harping on. Talking about an “old deal” or “original deal” is more a matter of verbal convenience than fact. The fact is that the “old deal” was really a proposal.

    The previous administration kept the deal stuck for several years. When it finally had the opportunity to go ahead with the so-called old deal (the 2012 proposal), it failed to see it through. This, despite the fact that the Indian Air Force’s critical need for fighter aircraft had been felt since as far back as 2000.

    The original proposal to buy 126 aircraft was first mooted during the then government in 2000 in order to strengthen the IAF’s operational preparedness. Through the entire decade of 2004-14, the government of the day was unable to meet the necessity mentioned above. It took the last administration 12 long years to determine the lowest cost vendor and start negotiations. If the present administration has tried to address the vacuum created by the indecisiveness of a decade, can it be faulted for the same?

    Concerns About Due Process
    The writer alleges that due process on Rafale was bypassed by the PM in April 2015 during his visit to France. The article alleges that the decision was unilateral.

    Here is the fact: Apart from the Joint Statement, the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) was issued. Thereafter, the IGA was signed only after the approval from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), the highest policy-making and decision-taking forum.

    It is in that order that the deal was finalised, and if that does not show due process in operation then what does?

    Private Players and Transfer of Technology
    Private Manufacturers

    The writer’s bone of contention is that the deal catered to the interests of private companies, specifically Reliance Defence here, since Reliance tied up with Dassault in October 2016 for a joint venture.

    Private players have come into India’s defence production and how two firms choose to work with each other, or not, whether they engage in a tie-up, is entirely a matter between the two parties involved. The Defence Minister, too, appeared to make this quite clear in a press conference on November 17, which the article calls “beating around the bush”.

    The Reliance-Dassault JV tie-up was after the Rafale deal was signed and the deal for 36 Rafale itself was purely an agreement between two governments, aimed at meeting the IAF’s critical requirements, involving no private player.

    As a matter of principle, there cannot be anything wrong with Indian private companies foraying into defence manufacturing, since they are allowed to do so. If domestic defence manufacturing gets strengthened, it will only save India a lot of money and time in defence procurement in future.

    ToT
    As far as the claims about Transfer of Technology (ToT) to a government PSU — Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) – are concerned, the critics, political or otherwise, do not seem to be in any position to talk about it. The question of ToT would have been relevant and financially prudent only if the last administration had succeeded in bringing closure to an unduly protracted negotiation process for the original order for 126 planes. From the evidence, it appears that the current administration is only trying to salvage the situation and meet the critical operational requirements of the IAF on an emergency basis.

    Our earlier article “An Examination of the Rafale Case: The Old Non-Deal and the New Deal” had pointed out: “The new deal on 36 aircraft in flyaway condition does not include ToT. The reason for that is economic. Spread across 126 units, ToT costs would make less of an impact than the same on a base of 36 aircraft. Instead, what is being done now is the consolidation of the Strategic Partnership (SP) model, which goes way beyond ToT and is a much more holistic approach. In the near future, this is expected to enable a strengthened defence manufacturing process through “Make in India” with seamless sharing of technology and more.”

    Defence PSUs & Defence-Industrial Complex
    It must also be pointed out that the exclusion of a defence PSU from the 36 aircraft deal does not appear to in any way mean its interests have been “harmed”. As mentioned above, the 36 aircraft from Dassault are to address a critical need of the IAF on an emergency basis. That is a short-term arrangement. In the long term, what is preventing Indian defence PSUs from collaborating or engaging in defence production? What India is aiming at is building its own defence-industrial complex in which both its state-owned and private defence manufacturers can play big parts. So, when we talk about HAL or DRDO, that is the perspective we ought to perhaps keep in our sight. Moreover, what is “Make in India” in defence if not the biggest push ever given to build this defence-industrial complex in India?

    Economics of the Rafale Deal
    Let us look at the details of the new deal and make a comparison with the “old” one:

    Old Deal New Deal
    The base price quoted this week in the allegations was $10.2bn (which translates into approximately €7.75bn as per December 2012 conversion rate). The actual price of the 2012 tender turned out to be 2.5 times higher, i.e. approximately $25bn or €19bn Total value of deal is €7.8bn
    Price did not include cost of weapons, equipment, tools, documentation, training & logistics. Adding these, the old deal’s cost goes up further Total value of deal includes cost of platform, infra support, supplies, India-specific changes, additional weapons package, logistics support
    18 planes were to be manufactured in France and 108 in India in collaboration with HAL. It was then found that the cost of 108 fighters would go up by about Rs 150 crore, or €19.5mn, per unit (2012 conversion rate between rupee & euro), with labour man hours being higher in India than in France by about 2.7 times By negotiating to bring the price down from January 2016, India actually saved about €750mn and also negotiated for several additional features and conditions
    India had agreed that the cost would be calculated on a fixed cost formula. So, Dassault would be allowed to add the additional cost of 3.9% inflation indices from the beginning of the deal (Day 1). The deal would have made India pay an additional cost of inflation indices which was already worked into the negotiation. Also, there was no clarity about how the base price would be calculated India asked France to calculate the deal on actual cost (price on day) plus European Inflation Indices. MoD then capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5% a year. Therefore, if European inflation came down subsequently, India would end up paying even less. If European inflation would go up, India would still not pay more than a 3.5% increase.
    The “vanilla price” per aircraft was roughly €81.8mn, or Rs 629 crore, excluding the €19.5mn, or Rs 150 crore additional cost (at 2012 conversion rates). Together, the two costs would bring the per aircraft base price to above €100mn The “vanilla price” of the 36 aircraft is about €3.4bn, making the per aircraft price €95mn, or Rs 727 crore in today’s prices and Rs 687 crore in 2012 prices. Therefore, the price per aircraft in the new deal works out to be only slightly higher in today’s prices and almost the same in 2012 prices, while with the estimated additional cost of making 108 planes here, it actually works out to be lower than the old price
    The cost of the 36 aircraft cannot be directly compared to the cost of the original MMRCA bid since the deliverables are significantly different. Also, the figures as per the 2012 conversion rates would be higher today as per the current exchange rate. Then again, under the “old deal”, India would have ended up paying more – for underdeveloped aircraft – and kept on paying more as per the vagaries of the European market!

    The “New” in the New Deal
    Renegotiated 50% Offsets Under the renegotiated offsets, Dassault is obligated to re-invest half the money from the deal in India again, which is estimated to create €3bn worth of business for Indian companies and, thereby, hundreds of jobs
    Delivery schedule, maintenance, product support All more convenient for India
    India-specific modifications Dassault agreed to make India-specific modifications to the Rafale. This would allow the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays.
    Meteor & SCALP European missile manufacturer MBDA is providing Meteor, an air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km, and Storm Shadow or SCALP, a 560 km-plus range air-launched cruise missile.


    Both missiles are state-of-the-art and will add tremendous fire power and penetrative depth to the IAF. With the Meteor, for example, the IAF can hit targets in hostile territory across India’s wester, northern or eastern borders while staying well within Indian territory.

    Additional clauses Under the new deal, Dassault will have to ensure that at any one point of time, 75% of the Rafale fleet is operational as per a five-year warranty
    More Concessions to India Training of 9 IAF personnel, (includes 3 pilots plus further guarantee of 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge pending the development of domestic infrastructure)
    Delivery Significantly enhanced, with a clear timeframe – the first Rafale jet would be delivered in 3 years from the signing of the deal and the whole lot over the next 30 months
    When the deal was signed in September last year, what we got was a deal very different from the original MMRCA deal. The additions to the Rafale and the further concessions from Dassault Aviation and France have qualitatively changed the deal. Thus, factors like the unit price as in the previous deal and current deal simply cannot be compared because the units are fundamentally different in qualitative terms.

    In very basic terms, the analogy is that of buying the skeleton of a car and buying a full car. The old proposal, for which prices are being quoted, was for a base unit of the car – the skeleton, without modifications or additions. In contrast, the new deal that the article has problems with has been completely customised by Dassault for India. What we are getting is the complete car, with all necessary tools and equipment.

    The difference between the old proposal and the new deal demonstrates the improvements made and, thus, the necessity for this India-specific deal. At the same time, we are looking at filling a critical vacuum in the IAF’s resources as quickly as possible.
     
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  11. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Ya that's why a. MKI was send to burst it's air with its 30mm gun, but as earlier said you forgot now the cost involved in deploying such planes, that's why you need LCA to be deployed in forward bases.

    F16 when started from YF16 project was developed for dog fighting with guns only, and even with its life threatening design flaws didn't stop usa to produce 1000 units, till that flaw was rectified later. During MMRCA, our air chief remark for Gripen C/D was Mig 21 ++, now it has evolved to Gripen E, thus development don't stop, and what is the reason for you to assume that the LCA could not have IRST equipment later on, when the off the shelf solution option for India is available from various sources.

    Now can you name a single fighter jet which have this capability on our western front.
     
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  12. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Did you forgot the labour cost. BTW the technique involved in the manufacturing in Rafale would be different, thus no point of calculating the man hour cost, without actually implementing it, and don't tell me that french have 4 hand g6instead of 2.

    As far as QA is concerned nobody is stoping Dassault to keep QA person al deployed similar to the Yuag aerospace for there Do xxx planes. And your comment on the Russians weather they are mad to allow Hal to produce MKI, and the britishers to allow producing Hawk or even french to allow the upgradation of the Jaguar, and even produce it's airframe if needed, since we have all the jigs available in Hal to produce it with licence fees and mirage 2k Upgrade.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  13. Masterhunter

    Masterhunter FULL MEMBER

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    LCA never meant to replace MMRCA..
    The role that is alloted, LCA is able to full fill that.
    When I say 50:50, I meant to say 10 sqn rafale and 10 sqn LCA. Its a better choice than 6 sqn rafale 6-7 sqn SEF and 7-8 sqn LCA.

    Hope now u understand what I meant to say.

    IAF has need for about 10-15 sqn of LCA (in it's different versions).
    Only if LCA fails, then we need something of SEF class of gripen/F16
     
  14. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Somebody please help me to get the actual meaning of "dog" in this tweet. I think,I missed something..
     
  15. FOXBAT ALOK

    FOXBAT ALOK FULL MEMBER

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    So ...we got one rafale in 800cr ???
     

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