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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    [​IMG]

    Basically he's saying that those 'four big questions' are persistently following NaMo's Rafale purchase.....not that I really care what Ajai Shukla says :biggthumpup:
     
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  2. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    UPA's rafale deal didn't meet its fate due to two main reasons.
    1st. Dassault was not agreed to guarantee license built Rafale.
    2nd. UPA want to buy them at the cost mentioned in initial phase whereas Dassault asked to raise the deal price because of inflation.

    In present, deal the unit cost of Rafale DH is nearly $91 million and Rafale EH is nearly $94 million. Rest you can convert them into INR for you own convenience
     
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  3. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    At this point, Mr. Shukla is shooting 2 stars with one bullet. Isn't it?
     
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  4. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Ajay Shukla !? said that .... one should question the timing of such articles

    also ... did he say Dog?? ... really... dam

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    Well done Shukla ji. :devilwork:
     
  6. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Putting a quality manager is good, but if he has no authority, it's totally useless. And that's what was planned at HAL.

    Dassault was not allowed to criticize HAL's way of working, but still had to ensure the quality of the products. => Just impossible, whatever the lead manufacturer (Boeing, LM, Airbus would have react in the same way).

    The manufacturing of a Rafale is more complicated than a M2000 or a SU30 : far more composite, superplastic modling, less tolerance...
     
  7. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Boeing flags inexperience of private sector 'strategic partners'

    In New Delhi on Thursday, the world’s largest aerospace corporation, The BoeingCompany, openly expressed what many global arms vendors have complained about in private: The Indian private sector is not yet capable of manufacturing complex military aircraft under transfer of technology (ToT).

    Pratyush Kumar, Boeing’s India chief, proposed that highly experience defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) – like Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) – be coopted, since that is where aerospace expertise and experience lies in India.

    Speaking “from the vantage point of a company that has been in the aerospace industry for 100 years, across the world,” Kumar in effect proposed a major reorientation of the defence ministry’s new Strategic Partner (SP) policy.

    The policy aims at creating capable defence manufacturers in the private sector, to compete with the DPSUs and Ordnance Factories (OFs) that have historically dominated defence manufacture in India. The policy requires private firms chosen as SPs to enter technology partnerships with nominated global “original equipment manufacturers” (OEMs), and jointly bid for contracts to build aircraft, helicopters, submarines and armoured vehicles for the military.

    But Kumar, speaking at a seminar organised by the Centre for Air Power Studies, the air force’s think tank, pointed out that successful examples of ToT-based manufacture involved “co-opting of public enterprise and private enterprise in a way that leveraged the investment made in the public enterprise for multiple decades”.

    The Boeing chief said he “tried hard, and could not find a single example [of successfully building an aircraft under ToT] where it was just the brand new private enterprise with limited aerospace experience. Look at Turkey, look at Japan, look at Brazil — look at multiple countries. In all cases, there is a fine balancing act of co-opting the capabilities of both public and private enterprise.”


    Other foreign companies are less forthright than Boeing. With two multi-billion dollar aircraft acquisitions already launched via the SP route — for single-engine fighter aircraft and helicopters — foreign OEMs have begun partnering Indian private firms. Lockheed Martin has partnered Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) and Saab has partnered the Adani Group, anticipating a tender for the single-engine fighter.

    This although TASL has never assembled an aircraft, while the Adanis have never built a single aerospace component. Foreign OEMs resent having to partner novices, but comply quietly so as not to rock the boat, said a foreign executive based in India.

    Boeing is more forthright, bolstered by the confidence of being the most successful arms vendor in India over the last decade. Since 2009, Boeing has sold India aircraft worth $12 billion. These include eight P-8I maritime aircraft in 2009, and then four in a follow-up order; ten C-17 Globemaster III heavy lift aircraft in 2011; and 15 Chinook CH-47F and 22 Apache AH-64E helicopters in 2015.

    While these were all sales of ready-built aircraft, Boeing is perhaps anticipating having to “Make in India” with an SP in another forthcoming contract — the navy’s multi-billion dollar acquisition of 57 ship-borne fighters for its aircraft carriers. In that acquisition, for which a tender is awaited, Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet would possibly compete with Dassault’s Rafale-Marine; Saab’s Sea Gripen and an upgraded version of the Russian MiG-29K/KUB.

    Aspiring Indian SPs, like TASL, admit that their role in an SP contract would remain “build to print”, i.e. manufacturing sub-assemblies and assemblies to blueprints provided by the OEM. Yet, it would provide a lucrative growth opportunity.

    “The need of the hour is for the ministry of defence to go forward with the two very large aerospace orders [for] single engine fighter and helicopters. Frankly, in my mind, there is nothing else to it,” said TASL chief, Sukaran Singh, at the same seminar.

    In contrast, HAL chief T Suvarna Raju talked up his engineers’ design skills and experience. Pointing to the range of helicopters HAL has designed ground-up – the Dhruv advanced light helicopter, Rudra armed helicopter, and the eponymous Light Combat Helicopter and Light Utility Helicopter – he declared: “Each component of our helicopters demonstrates the skill sets of HAL designers, of their capabilities and innovation efforts. Look at the carbon composite blades and the transmission system, composite body structure, glass cockpit and many more…” The air force, however, continues to back the SP policy. “The only way to sustain the momentum in the aerospace manufacturing space is to start manufacturing here and strategic partnership model is a step in the direction,” said Air Marshal Shirish Deo, the air force’s vice-chief. The SP policy has been in the making since 2014-15. It remains contested and a work in progress.



    First Published: Fri, September 08 2017. 01:49 IST

    http://www.business-standard.com/ar...sector-strategic-partners-117090800051_1.html
     
  8. CNL-PN-AA

    CNL-PN-AA 2nd Lieutant MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...-est-chaud-pour-dassault-aviation-758959.html


    Twelve additional Rafale in Qatar, it's hot for Dassault Aviation

    By Michel Cabirol | 23/11/2017, 6:56

    [​IMG]
    President Emmanuel Macron will be in Doha on December 7th (Credits: Pascal Rossignol)

    Qatar may soon lift the option to purchase an additional twelve Rafale.Emmanuel Macron will be in Doha on December 7th.
    It's hot again for the Rafale in Qatar. Doha has also asked Paris for an extension of the option on the sale of twelve Rafale, which was due to expire, according to La Tribune. According to our information, the CEO of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier also recently went to Qatar to carry a commercial offer for the sale of twelve additional Rafale following the contract of 6.3 billion euros (including arms MBDA and Safran ) signed in May 2015 by Doha for the purchase of 24 French fighter aircraft (six in tandem and 18 in single-seaters).

    12 additional Rafale and VBCI for Qatar?
    The Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, who came to Paris on September 15 to meet Emmanuel Macron, should quickly decide. He could even announce this new order during the visit of the French Head of State to Qatar scheduled for 7 December. An announcement that could precede that of Egypt which continues negotiations with diligence with France.An Egyptian delegation was still in Paris this week.

    This visit would also be an opportunity to sign a contract in favor of Nexter for the sale of VBCI, shortlisted by Qatar. "This is not excluded," says one at La Tribune. The land armament group responded several years ago to an offer for more than 300 VBCI armored vehicles, a contract estimated at 2 billion euros, to equip the Qatari land forces.
     
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  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    So 24 more jets from Egypt and Qatar, not bad. It will take the total export tally to 108.
     
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  10. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    "Macron was scheduled to visit India for the first time in December to attend the International Solar Alliance (ISA) summit, which has been postponed to early 2018. The French president’s schedule is being mutually worked out and will be announced soon", officials said.

    Anyway looking forward to French President Emmanuel Macron visit. Hope things progress well in all fronts... Just say no to freaking F16.... Yes to everything else...
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Egypt and Qatar are fighting to be the first for delivery.
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Rafale deal faces turbulent weather: Part 1

    By Ajai Shukla
    Business Standard, 23rd Nov 17


    Prime Minister (PM) Narendra Modi – on April 10, 2015 in Paris -- stunned the global military aerospace industry with the announcement that India would buy 36 Rafale fighters in a government-to-government arrangement with France, effectively ending an eight-year global procurement process for 126 fighters. There is controversy too over how the deal was announced – by the prime minister himself, during a state visit to France – without clearances from his cabinet or defence ministry...

    Due diligence done?

    Addressing the media on Friday, a feisty Sitharaman insisted the PM had followed due process, with the purchase of 36 Rafales having been cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). “In September 2016… the Inter-Governmental Agreement for buying 36 Rafales was signed in the presence of the defence ministers of France and India”, she stated, underlining that one of her predecessors, Manohar Parrikar, was on board.

    In fact, Parrikar wasted no time in distancing himself from the decision after the Modi-Hollande announcement. “Modi-ji took the decision; I back it up”, he told Doordarshan on April 13, 2015. Elaborating to NDTV, he described the decision as “the outcome of discussions between the prime minister [of India] and the president of France.”

    In fact, Parrikar had learned about Modi’s impending announcement precisely a week in advance. As Business Standard reported (September 23, 2016 “As Rafale pact is inked, many concerns remain”), Parrikar was driving to the airport on April 3, 2015 to catch a flight to Goa, when he received a call on his mobile phone summoning him to the PM’s office. There, Modi sprung the bombshell about the proposed announcement and tasked Parrikar to manage the media during Modi’s nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada.

    Both Sitharaman and Parrikar point out the defence procurement procedure (DPP) permits regular procurement procedures to be bypassed on strategic grounds. Indeed, Paragraph 71 of the DPP caters for “occasions when procurements would have to be done from friendly foreign countries which may be necessitated due to geo-strategic advantages that are likely to accrue to our country.”

    However, Paragraph 71 also stipulates that this requires prior clearance. It says: “Such procurements will be done based on an Inter Governmental Agreement after clearance from CFA (competent financial authority)”, in this case the CCS.

    Further, Paragraph 73 of the DPP says: “Decisions on all such [strategic] acquisitions would be taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on the recommendations of the DPB (Defence Procurement Board)”.

    No ministry or cabinet body was consulted before Modi committed India to the Rafale purchase on April 10, 2015. The CCS sanction was processed and obtained only later.


    Putting Dassault in the driving seat

    A key criticism of this procurement is that Modi’s Paris announcement effectively handed Dassault a single-vendor contract, ignoring the readily available option to bring in one more vendor.

    Says a senior defence ministry official of that time who has recently retired but requests anonymity: “The PM chose Rafale based on the IAF’s technical evaluation and flight evaluation trials in the MMRCA process. Why did he ignore the second fighter, Eurofighter Typhoon, which had also passed that IAF evaluation? If the government wanted to truncate the MMRCA contract into a 36-fighter buy, India’s interest clearly demanded that both Eurofighter and Dassault be asked for new price bids. That would have created a competitive procurement, with two rivals bidding against each other. Instead, the PM inexplicably handed Dassault a walk-over with a single-vendor contract”.

    Interestingly, Eurofighter had kept its India office open, even after India declared Dassault the winner of the MMRCA procurement in 2012. Asked why, a top Eurofighter official told Business Standard in 2013: “If India decides, for whatever reason, to re-evaluate its MMRCA decision, it is our duty as the L-2 (second lowest bidder) to provide India an alternative option.”

    As it turned out, India did re-evaluate that procurement, but inexplicably ignored the opportunity that Eurofighter presented. The resulting financial loss is hard to assess, but aviation industry analysts assess it was at least in the hundreds of million dollars...

    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2017/11/rafael-deal-faces-turbulent-weather.html?m=1

    A deal not according to DPP procudures and at a possible loss of 100s of million dollars, without ToT and for a fraction of the required fighters. Where are the anti national calls now?
     
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Wrong, because as explained, when you don't know the target / the threat level, the security of the nation comes first, not costs. That's why you send fighters capable of taking on any possible thread.
    When you know the target and the threat level is low, like in basic air policing roles, you send low end fighters.

    As explained in the LCA thread before, the lack of space in front of the cockpit.
    But IRST doesn't define if you are a light or medium class fighter, the load limits and capability does. A Gripen C/D with IRST would still remain a light class fighter, just as Tejas.
     
  14. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Gessler, BON PLAN and PARIKRAMA like this.
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Exactly and that's why it's wrong to make calculations where LCAs could justify MMRCA squadrons.

    We have a need of 126 to 250 medium class fighters and below of that, a need for up to 200 light class fighters and Tejas in any standard, would only count for the low end requirement.
     

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