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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I guess it's because the IAF put its foot down and refused to accept any alternative . That said , the conduct of Dassault Aviation ( DA) hasn't been above board in their negotiations with the previous GoI after being awarded the MMRCA contract .

    In all probability there was a deal between the current GoI and DA guaranteed by the French Government on offsets and numbers with DA being allowed the freedom to choose it's Indian partner ,which it promptly did by bringing in Reliance . That they would go in with Reliance wasn't exactly a secret in this part of the world too .
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    There can be plenty of reasons that you don't see. Elections, cost's, Selex ban..., which all had nothing to do with Rafale. But that doesn't counter the industrial advantage of EF, nor justifies a 36 fighter order.
     
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  3. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    There are various reasons behind the rejection of EFT including its multi-national engagement, higher price tags, bad history of some EU companies including Leonardo, Selex ES etc.
    Multi National engagement was the priority case...
     
  4. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The Typhoon was and still is encumbered with ITAR components. The Rafale isn't. In fact, Airbus recently admitted there were even more ITAR stuff in the Eurofighter than they had admitted.
    http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2017/10/9M2017Results.html

    Following a review of its US regulatory compliance procedures, Airbus has discovered and subsequently informed relevant US authorities of its findings concerning certain inaccuracies in filings made with the US Department of State pursuant to Part 130 of the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). Airbus is cooperating with the US authorities. Airbus is unable to reasonably estimate the time it may take to resolve the matter or the amount or range of potential loss, penalty or other government action, if any, that may be incurred in connection with this matter.​

    From the point of view of an India that didn't want to risk being subjected to US control and sanctions, there were only two choices in the MMRCA competition: Rafale and MiG-35. The MiG-35 was disqualified on technical grounds.
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    And that plays no role for a country that is customizing it's fighters with US engines, weapons and AESA radars with US parts.
     
  6. proud_indian

    proud_indian 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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  7. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    What was the number of order of the first batch of MKI. BTW 36 was G2G deal, that doesn't means you keep on repeating your imaginary bogus theory repeated again and again.

    Safran moteors gtre , kaveri development, plus offset technologies will make up 50 percentage needed rest assure, save your GAN tears for the future.
     
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  8. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    True if 5 th gen aircrafts enter in IAF .
    Except FGFA is nowhere in timeline .
    F35 won't allow any strategic role.
    Rafale in small numbers may be the interim., AMCA co development will help in regarding 5th gen requirements.

    True Typhoon might given more industrial benefits.Which we primarily needed.
    But the present deal is slated to help Kaveri engine revival
    Next tranches in Tejas upgrade
    MII in private industrial set up.
    AMCA help.

    All in all this Franco - Indian deal is set to upgrade entire aviation of our country ..not in a single deal but in pieces .
     
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  9. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Government Said It Would Share Rafale Price Details. It Can't

    Friday, November 24, 2017
    By: NDTV


    [​IMG]

    Exactly a week after Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman promised to share the financial break-up of the 58,000-crore or $8.7 billion deal with France for Rafale fighters, details are emerging on just why the government has still not released this data in public.

    NDTV has learned that a confidentiality clause in the government-to-government deal signed in 2016 for 36 Rafales means that neither India nor France can release these details unless ordered to do so by a court in the event of a disagreement between both parties.

    The Congress has alleged that Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has caused "insurmountable loss" of taxpayers' money in signing the deal for 36 Rafale aircraft from France. The opposition party has argued that the cost of each aircraft is three times more than what the previous UPA government it led had negotiated with France in 2012, statistics which have been strongly disputed by the government.

    The government, for its part, insists that its predecessor was never able to close its deal for 126 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, 108 of which were meant to have been made in India in partnership with the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. They say the deal they have secured in 2016 for 36 Rafales from France in an off-the-shelf buy includes a superior weapons package and complete logistics support at two designated Indian Air Force bases.

    The Congress also alleges crony capitalism benefiting billionaire Anil Ambani, who is seen as close to PM Modi and whose Reliance group is partnering with Dassault. As part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" campaign, foreign defense companies have to invest a percentage of the value of deals that they have been awarded into India to help the country build its own manufacturing base and wean itself off imports. This "offset" through Reliance is questionable, says the opposition, pointing out that Reliance has virtually no experience in defense manufacturing. Reliance has threatened to sue over these allegations and says that this offset contract is India's largest ever.

    The 51-49 % partnership will see Dassault handle the entire production and guarantee of aerospace components manufactured through the joint venture. Reliance Defence is responsible for providing land and human resources at a site in Nagpur. For now, the JV is meant to manufacture aerospace assemblies for the Falcon business jet which would eventually be manufactured in India for sale to customers around the world. A second Dassault manufacturing facility in partnership with Reliance Defence may come up elsewhere if the group wins an order to manufacture Rafale fighters in India in the future.

    A third of the offset value has been reserved for the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), whose team is scheduled to travel to France soon in part to solicit help in reviving the indigenous Kaveri jet engine project. India is also thought to be interested in acquiring French expertise in low observability technology which would make Indian make military aircraft and warships tougher to detect.

    Sources also point out that in government-to-government deals, the precise value of each item being negotiated may not individually be stated. According to Defence Analyst Commodore Uday Bhaskar, "In any government to government deal where there is a platform thats being negotiated with a commitment for life time spares support, there would be a costing under different heads but the disaggregated detail may not always be shared." Air Marshal (retd.) BK Pandey, a former Air Officer Commanding of the IAF's Training Command says, "Its practically not possible to address every detail of every component in the deal. This is because the value of components is bound to change over the life cycle of an aircraft."

    NDTV has chosen not to report broad estimates we have obtained of elements of the Rafale contract unless these are confirmed on record by the Defence Ministry.

    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/why-detailed-price-specs-of-rafale-deal-arent-being-shared-1779270
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    You have to differ between facts and hype. There is no support on LCA, there is no commitment to AMCA so far either. The offset returns are focused on DRAL only and mainly on screwdriver jobs, while the Rafale deal under MMRCA was meant to provide us critical Rafale techs, industrial advantages throughout all main Indian partners (DRAL, BEL, Samtel, HAL...). Building Falcon or Rafale components, won't get as even near the level of a full Rafale, M88, RBE 2, SPECTRA, FSO production line.
     
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  11. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Sincerely, there IS (was confirmed to me in "off" by a DA high executive, vice pres. level)
     
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  12. Golden_Rule

    Golden_Rule Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Pricing and Commercial terms confidentiality is always part of every deal. As the product establishes its brand reputation in the market, companies want to make better margins and profits out of their efforts. This is 1-1 of business.
     
  13. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Lol share your source that IAF is not committed to AMCA or does not wants AMCA.
     
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  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    From light fighter to nuclear delivery platform: Long road to the Rafale

    By Ajai Shukla
    Business Standard, 25th Nov 17

    ...In the newest twist, after Prime Minister (PM) Narendra Modi announced on April 10, 2015 in Paris that India would procure 36 Rafale fighters from French vendor, Dassault, the justification for acquiring such a high-end fighter transformed into veiled hints that it is a platform for delivering nuclear weapons in wartime.

    Three days after Modi’s Rafale announcement, then defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Doordarshan: “It is a strategic purchase and should never have gone through an RFP (Request for Proposals, or a competitive tender)”

    Most nuclear strategists have taken “strategic purchase” to mean that India would rig Rafale fighters to deliver nuclear weapons – in place of the Mirage 2000s and Jaguars that currently do the job – as the airborne leg of its nuclear triad.

    In the calculations of many analysts, there could be no other valid reason for an air force that already operates seven types of fighters to buy just 36 aircraft of an entirely new type, further complicating a logistical nightmare...

    ...If indeed the Rafale’s nuclear capability led to its purchase, it remains unclear why the government does not publicly state it? The commitment to a nuclear triad – of delivery of nukes by land, sea and air -- is already publicly enunciated in India’s nuclear doctrine. It would be reasonable to state that the IAF is paying souch a heavy cost to have the most seamless transition from the Mirage 2000 to another French platform, says Narang.

    However, there would be questions over whether the Rafale needs to do that job. The Mirage 2000 and the Jaguar are both being upgraded, and can act as airborne nuclear vectors till 2030-35...

    ...Since the early 1980s, when the IAF had 42 fighter squadrons but 30 of them were light MiG variants that faced obsolescence, it was decided to develop the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) to replace them. In 1981 the IAF, in a document called “Air Staff Target 203”, defined a requirement for a light, single-engine to replace the MiGs from the mid-1990s.

    But the LCA was delayed and, in 1999 had still to make its first flight (it eventually flew only in 2001). The IAF, happy with the performance of the Mirage 2000 in the 1999 Kargil war, began lobbying for buying the Mirage production line that Dassault was closing down, and re-establishing it in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to build the excellent Mirage 2000-5 fighter.

    “As an air force we were very familiar and comfortable with the operational and tactical handling of the Mirage 2000,” said Air Marshal (Retired) Pranab Kumar Barbora, who was Vice Chief of Air Staff till 2010.

    That would have given the IAF large numbers of inexpensive yet sophisticated, single-engine fighters, ideal for replacing the MiGs. But the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) defence minister, George Fernandes, under fire after the Tehelka exposes on defence procurement corruption, shied away from a single-vendor buy from Dassault – ironically, considering that eventually happened with the Rafale purchase 15 years later.

    In 2002, Fernandes ordered the IAF to float a global tender. Specifications were framed for a light fighter, and the IAF floated a “Request for Information” to four global vendors in 2004. However, in 2005, Dassault – apparently miffed at having to compete instead of being awarded a single-vendor contract – foreclosed the option of transferring the Mirage 2000 line to India.

    It took the IAF three more years to draw up specifications of a new fighter. On August 28, 2007, when the IAF issued an international tender for what was dubbed the MMRCA, the inexpensive, light, single-engine MiG-replacement fighter had morphed into a high-tech, medium-to-heavy fighter that could have one engine or two, and would inevitably cost far more than what was hitherto envisaged.

    When responses to the tender came in, there were now six aircraft in the fray: Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen - C; Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Super Viper; Russian Aircraft Corporation’s MIG-35; Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Eurofighter’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale.

    Defence Minister AK Antony, while chairing a meeting of his Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) on June 29, 2007, outlined three guiding principles for the MMRCA procurement: “First, the operational requirements of IAF should be fully met. Second, the selection process should be competitive, fair and transparent, so that best value for money is realized. Lastly, Indian defence industries should get an opportunity to grow to global scales.”

    A decade later, none of these objectives have been met. With the IAF’s operational requirements still unmet with the procurement of just 36 Rafales, fresh tendering is underway for 114 “single-engine fighters”. Instead of a “competitive, fair and transparent” selection, the decision to buy the Rafale remains opaque. And, with the “Make in India” component of the deal scrapped, indigenous defence industry remains ignored...

    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2017/11/part-3-from-light-fighter-to-nuclear.html?m=1
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    At least try to understand the context of the post you are replying to. We are talking about the Rafale deal and it's impact on Kaveri, LCA or AMCA. :disagree:
     

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