Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,499
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    Country Flag:
    Afghanistan
    Even modernized, the Jaguar will still be an old platform that will have to be retired from strategic service and move to support role as soon as possible.

    2005 is when the assembly line started getting dismantled since no new aircraft of the type were being built. (Last Mirage 2000 deliveries were in 2007, it takes 2-3 years to build an aircraft, do the math.) There's no miffing here, simply that India took too long and missed the opportunity. The fault for that is 100% India's, 0% Dassault. But of course, storytelling has to present India as the victim of international conspiracies.

    What's opaque about choosing to buy the fighter that a rigorous, transparent, and overly long procedure had chosen? Keep in mind that the MMRCA procedure was not officially scrapped until quite a bit later anyway. And the "Make In India" component of the deal is the offset policy.
     
  2. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,968
    Likes Received:
    1,461
    Country Flag:
    France
    You only have to blame Indian politics.
     
  3. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,968
    Likes Received:
    1,461
    Country Flag:
    France
    CONGRATS !
     
  4. Metrology

    Metrology FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    27
    Country Flag:
    Sweden
    You assume a perfect result in practice, which feels quite optimistic. It has to be difficult to achieve a good result against an older radar. A modern LPI radar with varying pulse intervals, lengths and frequency hoping... An AESA radar can even change frequency within the pulse. How would it be possible in practice to cancel out such a pulse? I don't see that happening without a supercomputer and time travel...
     
  5. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    2,357
    The idea (ask to Typhoon pilot, seeing Rafale but unable to lock during a lion exercise) is to break the kill chain, not to be "fully" invisible. So as to force the opponent to start permanently a new loop. (detect locate etc.)
     
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    Nobody cares about Jags, when you have upgraded M2Ks till 2035 for that role...
    ...unless IAF gets a stealth aircraft in between, which adds clear advantages. So he is right, the justification of Rafale for strategic purposes, doesn't hold it's own, since the time frame, where Rafale actually would be the preferred choice, for this specific role is rather small and wouldn't be worth the costs. That's possibly why the government doesn't use that claim anymore.

    Lol, because you was there and to know it better? Moreover, India did the right choice not to go for an M2K production line, because we would be stuck with outdated fighters and difficulties to upgrade them, just as it would be the case for F16s, or Mig 35.
    France moved to Rafale and the new platform limits the future potential of the old one (engine upgrades for example, or Meteor). So going to modern MMRCAs and using the new industrial opportunities that came up by then, was definitely the right move, only the outcome is disappointing and 100% Dassaults fault!

    The fact that it doesn't include anything the rigorous and transparent tender was about and that it was under a deal deviating from Indian defence procurement procedures. Even DM Sitharaman confirmed, that the procedure was kept only after the announcement.

    MMRCA under Jaitley and Parrikar:
    - 18 + 108 fighters
    - licence production
    - ToT
    - under DPP procedure as a competition

    PMs deal:
    - 36 fighters in flyaway condition
    - no licence production
    - no ToT
    - single vendor deal without proper process
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    A perfect result is not possible. If things were perfect then the F-22 would have 0 RCS and would be completely invisible to radar, but it's not perfect and hence has a radar return.

    As for LPI, changing PRF etc, all this stuff was invented decades before active cancellation was.
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,687
    Likes Received:
    3,462
    That's the important part, that some people still don't understand.
     
  9. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,499
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    Country Flag:
    Afghanistan
    ... I wouldn't bet on that time frame being short if I were you. The Rafale will be the preferred platform as soon as it is available for this role (it has longer range, endurance, and survivability than the Jaguar or the Mirage 2000) and given the less-than-stupendous speed of Indian procurement I do not expect stealth aircraft to arrive all that quickly.

    Are you actually aware that India is currently looking into possibly purchasing the F-16 production line? There's an entire thread about that. You post in it, even.

    That's not true, and there are proofs of that in the Indian Air Force. Or rather, it's only true if you don't want to develop the upgrades yourself.

    The announcement was just an announcement. It only expressed intent. It could have been broken at any time. The important part is that the procedure was kept.
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    I wouldn't bet on that. The way we are going, we will end up with FGFA contract first, Gripen contract next, Rafale contract after that and then LCA.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    This is much more radical than simply breaking the kill chain. It's as though the kill chain wasn't even initiated. If something as advanced as the Typhoon couldn't lock on to the Rafale in visual range, then that makes it much more difficult in BVR.

    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f-22-raptor-capabilities-and-controversies-019069/
    “I can’t see the [expletive deleted] thing,” said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. “It won’t let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me.”

    So a F-15 with a similar quality radar faced the same problem against the F-22.

    The Rafale and F-22 probably achieved the same result in a different manner, but it's worth talking about because it looks like the Typhoon and Rafale were fighting with all guns blazing and not hiding capabilities.

    As long as the Rafale maintains this massive advantage against most of the old fighters in Pakistan and China, it's worth every penny. Now, if the Rafale manages this against more advanced fighters.........eyyy.........partyyyy!

    @vstol jockey @Hellfire
     
  12. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    352
    Country Flag:
    Canada
    do we have a source on the results of the typhoon vs rafale exercise?
     
  13. Metrology

    Metrology FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    27
    Country Flag:
    Sweden
    That at least sounds possible given it most likely wasn't against an AESA radar. And before PIRATE I assume.
     
  14. Metrology

    Metrology FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    27
    Country Flag:
    Sweden
    Of course, and so will Rafale, even under ideal conditions.

    How do you propose that active cancelation could work in a meaningful manner under such circumstances?
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    LPI is a problem for anybody, but it's a problem for the LPI radar also. You can't get full target information while operating in LPI mode. You will need to generate more power to get more information from the target. So while the radar is doing this, the Rafale will be able to separate the radar signal from noise. There are other ways as well, for example, detecting the source of the radar signal using other sensors.

    As for frequency hopping, changing PRF etc, these shouldn't affect active cancellation. Active cancellation removes the target echo from the returning signal. There's no point in speculating how Rafale's AC works except that it works.



    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1270963815002254

    http://www.mwrf.com/systems/analyzing-active-cancellation-stealth
     

Share This Page