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Rafale deal signed

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by PARIKRAMA, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No, just that it is LO in IR too.
     
  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Now this what I call a joke.
     
  3. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  5. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    look at those sancho (and others interested in active cacellation)

    https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q...ved=0ahUKEwiDqsbFmY7UAhVqIcAKHQ8uCgwQgQMIJzAA
     
  6. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Rafale procurement process has been clumsy, but is it crooked?
    November 27, 2017, 11:05 PM IST Economic Times in ET Commentary | Business, India | ET
    By Abhijit Iyer-Mitra & Angad Singh

    The Rafale controversy revolves around the pricing of the aircraft. Is the per-unit price negotiated by the current NDA government any less than that which was negotiated by the UPA?

    As purchases go, there is more than enough muck to hurl around in this deal. What started off under the UPA as a desire for repeat procurement of 126 Mirage 2000s after the Kargil conflict had, by 2004, first morphed into the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) procurement, which then in 2007 morphed into the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement. All this did was circumvent the possibility of purchasing a light aircraft and settle, instead, for a heavier two-engine fighter.

    There were cogent reasons for this. By this time, it had become abundantly clear that the Sukhoi Su-30MKI programme — a fusing of western technology on an eastern platform — never quite worked as promised. Plagued by multiple systems failures and abysmal availability, its most important function — the ability to air-deliver a nuclear payload deep inside China — was in doubt.

    This is when the crucial decision was taken by the air force — and validated or ignored by the UPA government: that air delivery of a nuclear device would be an important element of this new fighter procurement. There was only one western platform available that filled this role: the Rafale. This meant that from day one, the competition was tilted in favour of the French aircraft, which then, predictably, went on to win.

    There were, however, very cogent reasons for this: the Rafale’s heavy payload, its significant range advantage over other competitors and, most importantly, it had the highest singlenation content among the competing western aircraft. This was key because France has traditionally supported and/or turned a blind eye to Indian fusing of nuclear ammunition with French platforms. The other competitors came with limitations on this score.

    Neither did the US platforms have the range nor was the US open to nuclear modifications to its aircraft. Likewise, the Swedish Gripen did not have the range, and it is doubtful if it could have been used in the nuclear role, considering Sweden’s dim view of nuclear proliferation.

    The Nuclear Umbrella

    Finally, the aircraft chosen as L2 (second-lowest bidder), the Eurofighter —because of its multinational character and the opposition of some partner countries to nuclear weapons —could not be a reliable nuclear-delivery platform.

    So, operationally speaking, once the nuclear role was prioritised over its war-fighting ability, there realistically was no option but the Rafale. Which is why even if some other options were cheaper, India could not buy them. The fact that the announcement came from the Prime Minister and not the defence minister is confirmation of this nuclear role.

    That’s why despite knowing the Rafale was not the cheapest, India realistically had no other options, with 36 being the bare minimum to maintain a credible nuclear-delivery force.

    What, then, of the price? The fact remains that the tender that the Rafale won in 2012 was unrealistic in price terms from start to finish, with GoI clearly not having done anything remotely close to due diligence. $10 billion for 126 modern fighters, single- or double-engine, in 2010, 2011or 2012 stretched incredulity to the extreme.

    As predicted in the 2012 Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies report, ‘India and the Rafale: Anatomy of a Bad Deal’ (goo.gl/MMAsmX), French Senate data from 2009 indicate a per-unit cost of a whopping $308 million per unit, making it the single most expensive fighter at the time — only slightly cheaper that the F-22 stealth fighter.

    [​IMG]

    What should be remembered is that this was the cost of the entire programme amortised over the total number of units (180) produced till 2012. Removing the development costs, the baseline estimate still ended up being $213 million, factoring in inflation since 2009.

    This would have been the realistic baseline price, on top of which the costs of India-specific modifications (Active Electronically Scanned Array (Aesa) radar, helmet-mounted sight) would have been added on. All this, while the Indian defence press was still running stories as late as 2013 of unrealistically low costs.

    In 2016, when the deal was finally signed, the price allowing for factoring in the 5% inflation (about $10 million) that should have happened over the four-year period from 2012, should have brought the price up to $223 million per unit. This, including all programme costs, but excluding weapons and India-specific modifications.

    Tough Fighter

    This means that the final negotiated per-unit price including programme costs (simulators, training and infrastructure) and India-specific modifications of $247 million is well within the ballpark figure. What is remarkable is that this figure has been reached despite losing economies of scale and cutting the order to almost a quarter of its original size.

    While this government and the previous have not been transparent about the Rafale, the strategic logic of the deal has been quite obvious to most observers since early 2012 when the plane was chosen.

    Has the process been suboptimal and marred by clumsiness? Emphatically yes. Is it crooked? Not based on the costs and facts as we see them.

    Iyer-Mitra is Senior Fellow, Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, New Delhi, and Singh is an air power analyst

    DISCLAIMER : Views expressed above are the author's own.

    https://blogs.economictimes.indiati...nt-process-has-been-clumsy-but-is-it-crooked/
     
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  7. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Why nobody is quoting INR depreciation against USD during this time?

    The payment was to be done in USD not INR. In 2012 when tender was won INR was 49/USD and in 2015 when deal was inked it was 66/USD.

    That's 33% depreciation! For amount of 50,000 crore this will add extra 16,000 crores just by depreciation of INR, not to mention inflation and other factor.

    The reason Congi stooges quote figures in INR is to avoid this massive depreciation and give impression of scandal. Typical lying and crooked bastards.
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    The Fault Lines of the Rafale Deal

    The feisty Defence Minister Ms Nirmala Sitaraman faced a volley of questions of late about the Rafale fighter deal for 36 aircraft concluded on April 10, 2015 as lacking in transparency as it did not have the prior approval of the earlier Defence Minister Mr Manohar Parrikar & the Cabinet Committee on Security. Besides it is being alleged that Dassault Aviation is being paid far more than the price earlier negotiated with the same firm in 2012 for 126 aircraft. Besides, the benefit of defence offsets will now flow to Reliance Defence, headed by Mr. Anil Ambani, an industrialist, who does not have any experience in aerospace manufacturing.

    As a matter of fact all the earlier arrangement for transfer of technology flowed into the HAL, the only agency having the capability to absorb technology, integrate systems and manufacture fighter aircraft for this country...

    ...HAL has a proud record of successfully absorbing technology of Mig 21 and Su-30 aircraft. The MMRCA license agreement would have provided a unique opportunity to HAL to absorb critical technology of a Western system for the first time...

    ...The key criticism of this new contract is that Modi’s Paris announcement had made it a single vendor contract without giving opportunity to the second vendor, viz Euro fighter typhoon, who was shortlisted in the evaluation trial. The Defence Procurement Procedure 2016 clearly frowns upon such practice to eschew competition and puts a premium on competitive tendering.

    As is well known, the defence deals, post the Bofors contract, are always viewed with a high degree of suspicion by the public at large. There is a valid perception that under the cover of “strategic” requirement, basic transparency and fairness in procedure is often glossed over. The DPP-2005, therefore, puts the highest priority on probity, transparency and accountability. All the subsequent updates of this procedure document constantly drums up the need to avoid “single tender” contracts, as it compromises the principle of competition which is the life blood of discovering a reasonable price and fosters corruption...

    ...Ms Sitaraman tried to defend the deal in terms of its legitimacy. But the fact remains that the deal was formally approved by the Cabinet Committee one year after Modi promised the French President Mr Hollande to ink this deal publicly, overlooking the formal process of approval from the Ministry of Defence. But more fundamentally, the party which prides itself with a spotless record on corruption would be hard pressed to defend its decision to go on a single tender, when another technically shortlisted vendor was available for price competition. Decisive leadership and nationalistic postures often overlooks serious fault lines like favoritism, potential corruption & missing the boat of indigenization.

    Read more at:
    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/the-fault-lines-of-the-rafale-deal-2/#.Whz4UTo1ol8.twitter


    Interesting note!

    Author:
    S.N. Misra
    former Director DRDO and Joint Secretary – Aerospace
     
  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It's because you have people like that, that prevent you from moving forward that you can not develop your aerospace industry.
     
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  10. W@rwolf

    W@rwolf FULL MEMBER

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    Joke of the year!!!! Please, do pray tell me, what technology did HAL 'absorb'? And how has it helped the indigenous LCA?
    Ofcourse the DRDO is unhappy! They missed a very good opportunity, but puts the blame on the wrong party.

    We Indians have a history of making unrealistic promises or even making unrealistic demands from others (see Army's rifle tenders for example) and goes around blaming everyone else but themselves!!!!

    What people don't realize (or maybe they don't want to) is that even though Modi signed an LoI with the French for the 36 Rafales, it could have been overruled at any time afterward; if it was found to be non compliant with our requirements or if it was against our interests. That's why it took a lot of time to sign the IGA once everyone had signed-off on that, after 3 rounds of DAC and CCS nod.
     
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  11. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    HAL successsully absorbing technology ?
    It's not visible on Tejas. They had all the fime for.
     
  12. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    • A very Senior and possibly one of the highes ranked person from Research Side is in France atm.
    • He is meeting Prez Macron, then DM Parly. Also meeting Qatari DM over Lunch.
    • His agenda includes the main technology sharing and absorption agreements in all fields. (air-sea-land)
    • And how Rafales can be structured to be in line with Make in India with passage of critical tech..
    • Discussion would include other strategic things as well..
     
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  13. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sir ; I was wondering whether The DRAL agreement can become a political
    HOT potato for the Modi Government

    The opposition can say that
    A Dassault -- HAL JV could ALSO have been formed
    with Management Control with DA along with 51 Percent Equity

    Why did not Govt of India go for this option

    The choice of Reliance Over HAL can cause Troubles for Modi in the Coming Months
     
  14. Butter Chicken

    Butter Chicken Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Only big words from American side but it seems like France will be real "strategic partner"
     
    Picdelamirand-oil likes this.
  15. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Your hints are so thinly disguised that even Zarvan will be able to piece 2+2 together and report to GHQ Pindi .

    o_O
     
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