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Recess - The Chill Corner

Discussion in 'The Big Adda' started by SpArK, Jun 28, 2010.

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  1. nair

    nair Die hard Romeo Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    This was refuted else where...
     
  2. Grevion

    Grevion Professional Think TROLL ELITE MEMBER

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    People here voted for BJP in 2013 due to Modi factor. Vasundara messed it all up. She's not even from Rajasthan and if put in competition against someone like Sachin Pilot she will loose. The traditional voters of congress ST-SC, OBC and SBC are gonna vote for congress this time which they didn't in 2013.
     
  3. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Thats is Bureaucracy, not the democracy and US is a Presidential form of democarcy where they choose Governers and Secretary, not CM and Ministers so the names bear a bureaucratic title adding to more confusion for Indians.
     
  4. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    Political science 101. Bureaucracy is part and parcel of democracy. Its not separate, if you want democracy, bureaucracy will automatically come in.
    In other words, its the necessary evil.
    Max Weber lambasted democracy for this very reason. It naturally leads to bureaucratization and hence dehumanization.
    Not my words sir, its just Political Science 101.
     
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  5. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Political Science 102

    Bureaucracy is also an independent form of governance and does not require democracy. Now recall your original post, the place where real power lies with bureaucrats is called Bureaucracy, not democracy. So before educating others, it is wiser to read your own words first.
     
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  6. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    Never heard that bureaucracy is a type of "governance". If you could give good source, I will definitely read up on it.
    Democracy is power to the people. Now that power can be utilised either directly: Direct democracy as in Switzerland. But that requires very literate and smart population and where general man can take out time for political decisions. Here, people directly take decisions through referendum.
    But it is open to paranoia, mood, etc. Hence, general people have to be very up to date.
    Not possible in many cases.
    Another form through which power can be exercised by people is Indirect democracy. It has 2 types: Parliamentary system: India/UK
    Presidential System: US
    Both these types require bureaucracy to function. Because people delegate their powers to representative. They call in experts to look after day to day activities. They are called bureaucrats.
    So in case of bureaucracy, both presidential and parliamentary form are same.

    What do you mean by bureaucratic form of " governance"? There is no such system like this as where does that power reside?
    Bureaucracy is a way to implement democracy, not a form of governance.
     
  7. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_government

    There is no UN set of rules or standardisation or certification on any specific definition of any form of governance like SI units of measurements that leaves us with a scope to debate something but not completely deny something just cuz I am not ready to accept it.

    Talking about problems in Democracy is different than talking about Democracy. What you said was wrong technically and again forcing yours only definition as Bureaucracy is a "way" to implement democracy doesnt really change a thing. Sure you can add bureaucracy into democracy or autocracy or monarchy or any other form or governance.

    Bureaucracy is a complete system in itself and can very well do without Politicians a similar(maybe not the very best) example is as they do when elections are held in any state or all over India where Bureaucrats (EC Officials) are supreme authority and not CM or PM. We even see the execution of it this very week as 3 states system is going on without a single politician holding any office of power.

    There are also many "theoretical" form of governance as they are not used in world anymore but that doesnt mean they dont exists or they cant. They evolve or merged with other forms of governance to create a better system with time.
     
  8. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov.
    Damn, the man was too US centric!:argh:

    Political "Science" is a well established subject. Guess, what these people are doing.

    Bureaucracy isn't in itself a problem. It facilitates democracy. Even dehumanization isn't a problem.
    Can you explain why bureaucracy leads to dehumanization?

    Guess its just your opinion. Please cite a source. But still:
    During elections, bureaucracy assumes transitory power because Constitution enables it to. Two things:
    Transitory, not permanent.
    Power from constitution. And constitution of India derives its power from people.
    You can never have this transitory system continue for eternity. Guess why Supreme Court is there and the concept of separation of powers.

    Not used anymore itself implies it exits only in theory.
    How is this all related to bureaucracy not being a form of governance?
     
  9. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Well established not precisely defined. There is always a scope to add new things or does Syllabus of Political Science in US is same as in India and its a standard? What are you saying at least read what you reply and see how is it answer or even related?

    Source for what? That is a complete system in itself? I gave you an example, working one. Cite a source saying bureaucracy is not a system of governance. Even a google search info box tell you its a system of governance.

    Why it cant be permanent? It is transitroy in India but it is a system, also there is nothing that can stop it from being a permanent if some nation try to implement it.

    Constitution was written BY few people not millions of us but FOR millions of us and they were "NOT" elected representatives of people at the time of writing. Must remember this before calling it derives power from people. It is normal, ordinary, common man who derives power from constitution written by non elected ones and there are plenty of countries even in our neighbourhood where a dictator wrote the constitution, so constitution deriving power from people is not absolute truth.

    Yes every system, however rotten or inefficient it is can stay for as long as the power is vested in the hands of top few hundred or even a single one and there are plenty of examples of it in Asia as well as Africa and no system, not even democracy is permanent, it failed miserably at many places and few of our neighbours are still struggling to implement it while another doing very well without it implying democracy too can be replaced just like any other form of governance.

    So it can never mean it evolved into a different system with time embedding few component of others?

    I think it was you who was trying to prove this after I gave you an example, working one and the counters you produces doesnt really stand a simple fact check.

    The way it was related is that systems get evolved with time (unless it is a political science book written by this and that and its frozen as standard all over the world), new things are added and there is no exact definition to define any system of governance, there is always a scope of improvement, debate, but not outright rejection without producing a single thing (Sorry I am talking about real world and not world of books, I hope you are not offended).

    I think I have wasted a lot of time on this, I hope you produce a better counter worth learning something and not some random unrelated buzz words.
     
  10. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    Holy shit, it takes a lot of patience! :cheesy:

    "Science" itself implies that the first task towards a problem statement is to define it. You said there is no specific definition for any form of governance. Absolutely wrong.
    There is a precise definition for governance and its types has been listed by political scientists.
    Kindly relate to your posts where you talked of no system such as SI.


    There is no nation where your system of permanent rule by bureaucrats without elections is practiced. Because bureaucracy is not a form of governance. Had there been any such thing, it would have happened at least once since ancient times. And classification of governance systems has been done since ancient times.

    It is the constitution that derives power from people and not the other way round. Shows your shallow knowledge.
    And debate on whether Constituent Assembly had the mandate to draft the constitution has been effectively been settled in affirmative.

    Who said otherwise? I am talking about whether bureaucracy is a form of governance or not. :crazy:

    There can be no system where there is just bureaucracy. That was the point. Give me one example where it has. There is none because it can't.

    "Buzz" words are inherent with knowledge and expertise.
    I am not saying I am an expert. But the buzz words that you say are just plain basic in political science.

    What I am saying is:
    When people talk of solution, there should be total knowledge of the system first.
    Like if you remove bureaucracy from having any role in your solution, just becuase you have little information about how the system works, you are removing the most lethal means of effecting your plan.
    As @Hellfire talked about Cabal. If you really form that, it will do immense harm in the long run than the positive that you are looking for.
    If you have bureaucratic solution, it will be long lasting and effective as it will not compromise the system and use system's inherent strength.
    Just my humble opinion.:confused:
     
  11. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    @Proxy1234 you won.

    EDIT: I just read later part of your post and I am thankful I replied above without reading full. Such self-claiming expert, producing nothing, but just "No cuz I said so" from own theory are found at every Chai ki Dukan in India. Knowledge! ROFLMAO :respect:
     
  12. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    And that is the reason why I don't participate much. I never intended to make it a debate. I like to use the term discourse. There are no losers in discourse.
    I humbly apologise if you are taking it that way.
     
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  13. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    I gave you the working example and you cant produce any argument that it is not working. The counter you gave were equally frivolous, Constitution can be written only in democracy? WTF! What about the dictators writing own as I said above, no reply just again repeating same. Waste of time.
     
  14. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    I never said Constitution will always mean democratic! I said bureaucracy is a part of democracy and there is no constitution that is purely bureaucratic because bureaucracy isn't a form of governance. You have failed to cite one such example. All you have been saying is what if someone writes one?
     
  15. Proxy1234

    Proxy1234 FULL MEMBER

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    My "knowledge" comment was in your response to "buzz words". Lol!
    When you have read about a subject, you will know terms that will become instantly buzz words for novice because they haven't read it.
    I also said I am not an expert, why not take that into consideration? Lol!
     

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