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Rohingyas - Ethnic cleansing or the only viable solution for long-term peace

Discussion in 'China & Asia Pacific' started by BMD, Nov 22, 2017.

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What do you do?

This poll will close on Aug 18, 2020 at 9:31 PM.
  1. Keep them

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  2. Demographic rationalisation

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  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Incorrect. You have to see it as whole not in segments.

    That is where i have a disagreement with you and your nations' approach. You sowed the seeds yourselves, and so you reap them and cry foul.

    Let me give you the first mistake.

    Crusades.

    Please read the history of Islam, it's followers and you will see how you made the mistake then. I am not going to write very long treatise on this right now as I want you to work a bit. Try and correlate the history of rise of Islam, it's followers and their traditions and how crusades were the first mistake.
     
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    @BMD

    This is a very good topic. Do not get digressed. Can discuss this with you in depth (hopefully)
     
  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    @InfoWarrior

    What are your views on my statement that Crusades were the first mistake?
     
  4. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Incorrect, Muslims attacked Europe in the 7th century and got as far as India too. Crusades began late in the 11th century as retaliation.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

    [​IMG]
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    And what has the Philippines got to do with colonialism or the crusades? Or the Uighurs in China, or the Chechens in in Russia? What about Boko Haram in Nigeria? How does kidnapping schoolgirls have anything to do with Nigeria's history as a colony? You're clutching at straws. There is no external explanation for Muslim violence, it comes straight from the Qu'ran. They have attacked on 6 out of 7 continents. The only continent not to suffer an attack is Antarctica because there are none there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    No. Koran is not the source. It is the Hadiths that are the source. The perverted interpretation.

    Now I will tell you how Crusades is an issue.

    If you actually read the history of Islam, you will find that the religion originated in the Arabic Peninsula (being cheeky here, of course you know it ;)). But what you, and most fail to understand and appreciate is that this region was always and is still, more a tribal community as opposed to a nation of common ideological standing or rationale.

    What began as a purely military campaign of conquest, needed the overtone of religion to create a 'cohesive' force. How else would you expect to unite the various tribes (at odds with each other too) if not with religion? And that is where giving a religious overtone to a purely political defence of Europe or capture of Jerusalem by virtue of calling them Cursades, played right into the hands of those who used 'Islam' as a force to enhance their military strength.

    I would suggest you read the history of Saladdin and his rise and conquest of Jerusalem. Why else would he capture Jerusalem?

    I will answer in detail at a later date, it needs to be addressed in depth and comprehensively .. suffice to say that the West has and is still playing into the hands of those who will use the structure of the polity and society of west, against it.

    As a summation, what I want you to analyse is my contention ' having realised that there is no way to militarily defeat the west (read christian and non muslim nations) the only way that they can win is to learn from the Chinese experience of first Tibetan and then Mongolian conquests'. Try and correlate it with every stage of history, your national history, till date.
     
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  6. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

    Muslims had already invaded Europe 4 centuries before the Crusades though. The first Crusades were in 1095, the Muslim invasion of Europe (and its spread to India and Pakistan) was early 7th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

    I think it's more a case of Trojan Horse. They're only effective if you let them in.
     
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  7. InfoWarrior

    InfoWarrior Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    From what I have gathered,
    I think crusades were similar to movement for Ram Temple in Ayodhya. Just like Advani's rath yatra from Somnath to Ayodhya. Crusade was a campaign to liberate their Holy lands and Temple mount from Islamic hands, which were wrongfully possessed by Muslims, this is what I observed from history. I have observed how determined the hardline Jews in Israel are to recover Temple Mount, Jews in Israel buy up properties surrounding the temple mount in old Jerusalem. They dream that one day they will build their temple in place of Al Aqsa mosque.
    Actual political motive of first crusade was to aid the Christian Byzantine Empire, which was under attack by Muslim Seljuk Turks. (similar to UP election)

    No matter how much a secularist explains to me, I don't think destruction of Babri Masjid was a mistake, similarly I don't think any European will think Crusade was a mistake. The main reason for European interest with this region was trade route between Europe and Asia.
     
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  8. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    The Muslim invasions were not Muslim invasions per se. They were invasions, just like Saxons of the Britain or Romans of elsewhere. However, they were named as such due to the follow on history of Crusades.

    Of course there is the story of proposed marriage of Joanna Platagenet to al-Adil. Was that a pre-dominance of religion or more of a political move? Although religion was brought into it too, but the mere fact that there was some consideration of the proposal, howsoever remote, will point towards the supremacy of political objectives of the individual rulers being supreme to purported religious ones.

    That is why I am suggesting that the approach needs to be revised. There is actually no use playing into the hands of those who are actually behind these moves.
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    You have gone off on a tangent. Hinduism is not a religion, hence there can be no comparison here. Read up ... suggest read Islam: A Short History - Karen Armstrong.
     
  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    You need to rationalize the history of post-independence India with occurrence at Babri Masjid and the PV Narasimha Rao government's approach. But then, be prepared to be shattered of your myths, as you will find how Indira Gandhi created problems in kashmir in 80s and how religion was mainstreamed by both her, Congress and Jana Sangh (BJP's forefather :)) and it created the space for JeI (India) to mainstream and give rise to JKLF.

    It is a long and boring topic, but the reason why we do not permit a religiously inclined discourse here. Because misinformed and half informed people spread more lies and poison than truth and facts.


    Read up on those aspects.
     
  13. _Anonymous_

    _Anonymous_ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    The Koran is the source . The Hadiths follow .There are 2 different phases ( different as opposed to distinct ) in the revelation of the Koran to the Prophet - the Meccan phase and the phase in Medina . The former is full of the message of love , forgiveness , peaceful co existence , reconciliation , etc the latter lays more emphasis on jehad , strife ,etc .

    That's why it's extremely problematic dealing with Islam not only from an outsider's perspective but also from an insider's perspective .

    https://intpolicydigest.org/2016/01/31/saudi-cleric-isis-and-saudi-arabia-cut-from-the-same-cloth/

    As an interesting aside - There are plenty of passages in the Koran where responses to identical situations invite diametrically different responses . Western scholars of Islam now seek to investigate the fact that the Koran wasn't written down until a good 20-30 years after the death of the Prophet . When it was finally done , there were various interpretations which in turn were suppressed by the Caliph Othman save one . The Islamic scholars have viewed this as identical to the attempts made by secular western scholars in subjecting the Bible to such analytical investigation which they see as unwarranted and besides the point in Islam . Those are the more charitable views and a minority report .The vast majority of Islamic scholars have reacted along more predictable lines .



    The Crusades started out as an exercise in religious piety to reclaim the holy lands by the sword .This followed the request of the Byzantine emperor for assistance against the increasing advance of the Turks in Anatolia . It also was promoted by the outrage of certain sections of the clergy and lay people on the occupation of their holy lands by heathen Saracens . The crusades degenerated into love of lucre in its later avatars .Interestingly it also targeted the Jews in Europe apart from the holy lands .

    The one crucial difference being that while the Koran enjoins a Muslim to take up arms not only in defence of his religion but also in its furtherance , in case of the Christians and the Crusades it was their temporal authority on earth as represented by the Pope who commanded them to undertake the Crusades . Which means while the crusades had strong religious undertones it wasn't divinely ordained , although the various popes down the ages have suggested precisely that.

    Once the religious dimensions of the crusades were apparent on the Christian side , the Muslims responded as they were wont to .Nothing rouses a Muslim more than the clarion call of Islam is in danger .It's always worked since the past 1400 years . Right down to the partition of our nation which in turn was initiated by a western educated minority among a minority , apart from being spearheaded by one (Jinnah) in the sub continent although the support it garnered cut across social class caste and even denominational barriers within that religion .

    The problem can be solved by the Christians / other non muslims in two or three ways - to use the Indo Pak analogy where you fight a war of attrition by taking more losses than you inflict or by waging full war like the Muslims ( similar to the Burmese response ) or a third alternative - appealing to secular principles of Justice , fair play , not giving in to terror , understanding that not Muslims are cut from the same cloth , countering the war of ideas , while fighting those resorting to terror - all this playing out against the undercurrent of Christianity & it's history of interaction with Islam that's understood but not openly acknowledged so as not to turn it into a war of religions ( as it is being waged in Western Europe ) .

    The taste of the pudding however is in the eating . The facts on the ground w.r.t the responses to the war on terror / war against Muslims ( depending on your PoV) are a combination of the factors as described above depending on who is waging the war and where.

    If you're suggesting assimilation through immigration ( conquest going by your analogy of the Tibetans and Mongols of the Chinese before their Sinicisation ) by the Muslims of the west , I don't think it's going to happen. This is as much about the Muslim , any Muslim irrespective of his denomination , considering his value system to be superior to that of the west as it is in his grudging acceptance of his current situation Vis a Vis the west but which he must change to his advantage . This is what the Islamic belief system is all about . Islam is as much a religion as it is a political system and in its entirety encompasses a value system which every Muslim believes sets him not only apart but renders him superior to the rest of humanity and also enjoins every Muslim to invite non believers into their fold through reasoning if possible or by the sword .
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  14. InfoWarrior

    InfoWarrior Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Hinduism is a collection of religions, I was trying to explain how crusade was not a mistake with a analogy. Sometimes things just have to be done because the situation demands it.

    Why would she create problems in Kashmir, after all she was daughter of pandit Nehru a Kashmiri. Pakistan created problems in Kashmir, Pakistan wanted to communally polarize Kashmir to get local support. They used the same strategy we used in east Bengal using Mukti Bahini. It was bound to happen in Kashmir, considering the demography and border with Pakistan. Its a common strategy, most recently in Crimea by Russia.

    Pakistan also tried to create problems in Punjab, they used global Jihad movement against us. It is only fair that we use this global war on terror against them. Congress and Indira Gandhi had no choice, they had to compete with communal politics. After 1971 victory Indira Gandhi said it was a "1000 year victory", it was to compete with jana sangh and get religious votes. Emergency was her silly attempt when things got out of her hands.
     
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  15. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    If you say so.

    Please Elaborate.

    Can I extrapolate it to criminal acts then?



    Oh you naive people. Read up. Read about the Farooq Abdullah govt after demise of Sheikh Abdullah and her shenanigans in trying to get Congress in power in J&K concomitantly with her actions in Punjab. You have no clue, do you?


    Are you sure? Because Pakistan was militarily being beaten when India sued for peace in UN.

    Really? What are your comments on the rise of Muslim United Front in 80s, their synchronization with BJP and it's predecessors? What are your views on Jan Sangh and Jamaat i Islami (Jammu & Kashmir)?

    What are your comments on Bhindranwale and Akalis and role of Indira in both Punjab, Tamil Nadu and J&K in 80s?


    Incorrect. Suggest read up on the militarization of JKLF and the rise of LeT and HM. You have no clue. And you are actually messing up the facts.

    Read and come back. You will be taught to research your posts now on. You spend so much time posting nonsense on related topics, hence have tagged you here.
     

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