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RSS-backed meet has Christians worried

Discussion in 'National Politics' started by Osiris, Feb 9, 2011.

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  1. RoYaN

    RoYaN Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Will never happen, it goes against the basic constitutional principles..
     
  2. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Narmada Kumbh and the manufactured evangelical protest

    The Narmada Samajik Kumbh, a purely cultural event is being politicised and demonised so much that it makes one feel as though the Hindus cannot even gather for a legitimate cause. The unwarranted protest of some Christian leaders over the Kumbh and the instant support of the Congress Party to them only confirm the long-held suspicion, that the Congress party and the UPA government are actively abetting religious conversion of tribals and adivasis.

    Narmada Samajik Kumbh is the second such event being organised by the Hindu organisations, with an objective of promoting the values of our heritage and culture. In a growing atmosphere of terrorism, Maoist bloody campaign and the increasing economic, political and social inequalities, these Kumbh are organised as anchors for strengthening the fabric of the society and nationalism. The first such Kumbh, held in 2006 in Dangs district in Gujarat was a major success, with eight lakh people affirming their commitment to the larger national cause. In this Narmada Kumbh, 10 lakh people are participating from the entire Central India region. The venue for the event from February 10-12 is Mandla, in Madhya Pradesh, along the banks of the river Narmada.

    There is absolutely no reason for the Christian leaders to express ‘fear’ over this Samajik Kumbh. They have said that the Kumbh is an event for reconversion of tribals from Christianity back to the Hindu fold. Their ‘fear’ only goes to prove that they have been indulging in coercive and aggressive conversions unchallenged and any faint sign of resistance is giving them the jitters. The point is, the Kumbh’s objective is not reconversion. And even if it is, what right does any community have to protest? If the Christians and Muslims have a right to carry on conversions, using means foul and unethical, the Hindus have double the right to bring the converts back to their original faith. It must be made clear once and for all that as long as conversions take place, anti-conversion and reconversion efforts will be made by the Hindus. It is the duty of every Hindu to work towards protecting the religion, in order to safeguard the national unity and integrity. For, forces inimical to our country are working towards balkanising it.

    A recently brought out book Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines has exposed the well-entrenched network of foreign funds, NGOs and the Church, which is working overtime to divide the Hindu society vertically, horizontally and diagonally, and to create disaffection between people and lead to a Africa-like scenario, where civil war and inter-clan and inter-community clashes have reduced the continent to puzzle board pieces. The book, a result of five years of research has used the data collected from various western embassies on the funding and the destination of these funds. While it has been known that both the West and Islamic forces have been pumping money through various channels into India for disruptive activities, this book nails the sources and the end recipients.

    Under this sponsored cacophony, it has become near-impossible to hear the voices of nationalism and sanity. Under the UPA, the situation has worsened like never before. While terrorists are given safe passage and invited for talks as state guests, the few Hindu organizations are being targeted systematically to create a fear psychosis. Government appointments are all being made on only one criterion - that the appointees should have a minority background, bloodline or identity. The media has been completely taken over, toeing the government line or echoing the babble of the leaders of the anti-Hindu bandwagon.

    For instance, Britain has always claimed to be the melting pot of cultural identities and in the name of freedom of the individual encouraged sections to operate from within that country against the interest of others, like India. Now, in a speech delivered at the Munich Security Conference last week, British Prime Minister David Cameron said, "Multiculturalism is doomed to fail; societies need a national identity." He bemoaned the fact that the British society had become mute and meek and did not stand up to the elements that were wrecking the national character. This situation is precisely what is developing in India, only here, it is the state that is sponsoring efforts to weaken and dilute the core identity of the nation, in the name of pluralism and diversity.

    The rising religious conversions are tearing into the cultural and social matrix. The centuries old rituals, customs and practices that helped bind the communities are being forced to be abandoned. The indigenous knowledge and system are being demolished to pave way for imported, western models of life, thoroughly unsuited for Indian conditions. The new religions spread disaffection towards the state and try to instill apathy to the political system, which would eventually isolate them from the mainstream of national politics and governance. While it is a fact that decades of development has bypassed these communities living in the interior rural India, coerced religious conversions are not bringing them any closer to the advantages of development. On the other hand, the purpose is just the opposite.

    It is in this context that events like Narmada Samajik Kumbh reinforce the faith of the people in the nation, in the community and in their culture and heritage, all issues intrinsically related to the Hindu religion. These events are social pilgrimages that would go a long way in strengthening the people-to-people bonding.

    Organiser - Content
     
  3. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Our Constitution sanctions "freedom" only for the practice and propagation of any faith or religion and certainly not for induced or forced "conversion".which missionaries are doing and using constitution to defend it

    This fact was asserted by the Supreme Court of India as well, way back in a landmark verdict in 1977, (Stanislaus V State of Madhya Pradesh, AIR 1977 SC 908). The Supreme Court declared that the fundamental right under Article 25 of Indian Constitution (the freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion) is not an absolute right, unlike some other fundamental rights like protection of life and liberty (Article 21) and right against exploitation (Article 23). The Supreme Court decided that Article 25 is subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of Part III of the Constitution.

    It also said that "propagation" of one"s religion couldn"t impinge on the "freedom of conscience" of other citizens.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
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  4. Hembo

    Hembo OLD MOD STAR MEMBER

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    No body is against any conversion or re-conrversion for that matter, if it at all makes any difference to the common Indian living below poverty line.

    The christian missionaries did it within the laws of the land and by providing services to the poor and downtrodden. We, the hindus failed to do that. We only succeeded to implement cast system rigidly, which I'm sure wasn't what Hinduism had originally envisaged. We managed to shoo the so called low caste tribals and Dalits away from the mainstream by denying them access to our temples, our drawing rooms or our dining areas. We refused to eat in the same plate where they ate. We refused to even share the place to worship.

    These unfortunate ones saw Christianity as a saviour to their self-respect and converted. The missionaries did take up few tricks, but all within the laws of the land.

    However, the method, these so called nationalist and fundamentalist Hindu organizations, is trying to adopt to bring back our low caste slaves to our embrace again is of violence and threatening and propaganda against their prevailing religion. That is what is not acceptable to the sane people, whether they are Hindu or Muslim or Sikh or Christians.

    The mentality of some of us can be summed up by one of our poster here itself, who claims that India is being ruled by Hindus these days. They cannot fathom the idea that India is not being ruled anymore. She is being governed.. by the representatives of Indian people only. The prime minister of India is a Sikh and past Presidents includes various respectable personalities belonging to Muslim..

    If these so called pathetic goons really wants that the converted ones are to be wooed back to re-conversion (whatever that means), they have to shed the path of violence, threatening and propaganda. Rather they have to show the inherent love that is part of Hinduism and stop discriminate the so called lower castes. If they want to take up revolution, let them take up to the streets demanding immediate abolishment of the caste system from our consitution, which itself is discriminatory. Indian constitution should have only two class of people.. People WHO HAVE and people who DOES NOT HAVE.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
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  5. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    ^^ In general, I feel that there has to be a giant thrust towards a "flat hierarchy" in Hinduism by the powerful organizations such as RSS. For example RSS/VHP can start a mass movement in tribal areas and other backward areas to build temples staffed by "lower castes", in which there is mass food distribution (langars), open to all. They should tie up with rich temples like Tirupati and establish giant food camps, and invite donations from all countrymen. I would be happy to donate for such causes, not because I am born in a Hindu family, but because of the immense benefit it will being to India and Indians.

    I feel that RSS will be a universally respected organization and the concept of caste will gradually vanish from public discourse with such "flattening" of the hierarchy.
     
  6. chachachoudhary

    chachachoudhary Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Good suggestion. Efforts are already being done in this direction with positive response. Unfortunately, however, mainstream media does not find the positive news reporting to be juicy enough and often prefer negative masal news.

    Here are some examples.
    [​IMG]
    Dalit offering prayers at a temple.

    [​IMG]
    A dalit woman priest at a temple in madurai

    Please remember that RSS is not just one organization, but it is an umbrella organization of several organizations.

    .....continued.
     
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  7. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    No there are many incidents of forceful conversions which are not in indian laws,second Dalits and tribals who converted to Christianity is still remains untouchable they are marginalized there also...Caste system is a curse and its still there in all religions and sections in our country
     
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  8. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    As I said, most missionaries use methods that the mainstream yellow media doesn't show. We have this problem in NE too and it is not the work of "Hindu radical propaganda". While missionaries don't mind selling of their religion with money and disrespecting it, they have no right to demonize openly the concepts of Buddhism or mainstream Hinduism in any manner which they ALWAYS do. "Worshipping of Devil", "praising evil", "you will be condemned to hell for reading the works of Devil" etc are common words of these two-timing missionaries with regard to our literature. This is not Indian Constitution. It is Maino Mafia's twisted dirty laws to allow missionaries run amuck. We Buddhists will also not allow this to happen.

    RSS has been turned into a bad word despite their noble work. Christian missionaries are nothing less than Isak Muivah and Taliban versions to those who don't know about their nefarious activities. You remember that riots in Meghalaya a couple of weeks back? Many such riots, attacks, desecration of monasteries/temples etc are done by missionary-backed vandals. Just Google it all. You will have lists and lists of NGOs who are not affiliated to ANY faith but keep a long list of hostile and unconstitutional activities Christian missionaries do which the government (especially the ruling one) continues to turn a blind eye into.

    This sort of blind eye portrayal causes people of the affected group to get frustrated and then they also resort to radical and violent measures. I don't support violence but this is a two-sided violence. If law is not giving them justice, what do you expect people of poor villages, small rural towns to do? They will retaliate in whatever ways they can.

    Even today, Christian missionaries use nonsense of 18th century "they suppress you with castes" propaganda for mainstream Hindus despite RSS officially condemning the caste system and advocating its removal. Check what chachachowdhary posted above. Most of RSS leaders are Dalits themselves. They work for poor irrespective of religion.

    And not just mainstream Hindus, even us. You should listen to the nonsense they spread. And we don't even have "castes"! Just different schools of thought! :hitwall:

    Our own monks work selflessly in teaching our people to live a content and simple life and be loyal to the country. But what you expect people to do when they face such problems from missionaries? They will see common victims like here the mainstream Hindus. So many missionaries spread dirt about our Sutras, it will make any commoner's blood boil.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
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  9. Hembo

    Hembo OLD MOD STAR MEMBER

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    ^^^
    Tshering22,

    You seem to be a logical and respected member here (by member, I am temporarily ignoring your Think-tank status for the time being).

    You are partially right when you say about the under the carpet methods of conversion by Christian missionaries. The propaganda, regardless of which side is involved, is equally condemnable. Govt should take action to prevent the missionarie's propaganda.. as they should do with the RSS also.

    However, you are wrong when you say its a 18th century myth that the lower castes are opressed, neglected and looked down upon. This, I have seen in my own home in my small village in Assam not so long ago. That is untill, I exploded and invited all of the lower caste ones to our main kitchen and dining area to my paternal uncle and aunt's horror. They had to find "Ganga-jal" to purify the area later (or so informs my cousin). :)Sarcasm:)

    ou have not responded to the later part of my post. I presume you are from sikkim, where the evil of castism is (fortunately) not predominant and you did not have to witness it first hand. I belong to a general caste, that is above all the lower caste, but a shade below the brahmins. I have witnessed the evils throughout my childhood growing in a small village in central Assam (Nagaon District). And my blood still boils to see educated people/ politicians/ religeous leaders not condemning it the hardest possible way. Much worst, lot of Indians still advocates it silently.

    My main point is that, if we want to woo people back to Hinduism, we should try clean up the mess and the evils that is ever present in the thousand of sects of Hindus and its preachers. Holding others responsible or blaming others is only going to increase confrontations and more orrisa-like situations. BTW, I donot subcribe to the argument that the recent Meghalaya-Assam (Garo-Rabha) conflict was based on religion. I have friends living in the area and my second hand information tells me that it started with some drunken brawl between two ethnicitis. It remains a ethnic unrest in my book.

    As for the RSS, studying 11th and 12th in a area dominated by Bengali population, I had to come across RSS and Bajrang Dal activities by default. I have seen some evil facades/ inherent hatred of these organization and that haunts me even now. can never go back to liking these type of religeously oriented organization in the future, be it Taliban or Christian missionary or RSS/ VHPs, specially with my lifelong philosophy of peace and harmony amongst all humane beings. In my book all are same and they do not subcribe to my countriy's motto of secularism and my own personal philosophy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
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  10. Coltsfan

    Coltsfan <b>SENIOR MEMBER</b> SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think you wasted that whole post replying to an incorrect statement. The statement RSS chief made wasn't about "forced conversion". I'll quote the statement again from your own post that RSS chief is said to have made.

    Maybe he meant forced conversion maybe he didn't, no one knows what exactly he meant. But if you go by his words, he is calling for a law to stop religious conversion, which is against fundamental principles of Indian constitution.

    I don't think anyone over here defends forced conversion or reconversion.
     
  11. Coltsfan

    Coltsfan <b>SENIOR MEMBER</b> SENIOR MEMBER

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    I didn't realize Tshering became a moderator. Must have missed it.

    Cool, congratulations dude:cheers: Great addition to the mods team.
     
  12. Hembo

    Hembo OLD MOD STAR MEMBER

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    Do Brahmins offer prayer under these temples where priests are Dalits? Co'mon, don't just see one side of the coin.. try to lok at it from out of the box and with an open perspective. Who are we trying to kid?

    But not admitting that we have a problem, we are summararily shutting the posibility to eliminate hese social evils.
     
  13. Hembo

    Hembo OLD MOD STAR MEMBER

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    Sorry coltsfan, He is a Think Tank, not moderator.. my bad.. I edited my original post to that effect.
     
  14. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am honored that you consider me so.

    There is absolutely no reason for why action has to be taken outside the very laws this government has prescribed. If there have been acts of violence, yes it needs to be dealt with according to the law. But this applies to ALL religious communities. However, this does not happen. The reason why mainstream Hindu stream has also sprung up with far right thinking people is because of the frustration that has been going on in the community over matters like conversion, attacks, communal riots etc.

    None of this happen against majority community in either Islamic or Christian countries. Rioting on political matters (like in France, UK etc) is common but no other mainstream majority community is manhandled the way it is handled in India. And this is both ways. I am also a technical minority but I say this from their perspective; India and Nepal are the 2 last countries which retain their state origins as mainstream Hindu/ Indic (i.e. Sikh, Buddhist, Jain included) countries. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc that used to be once Buddhist/Hindu/Sikh have been Islamized.

    Hence mainstream Hindus have still not raised the matter and let it go such as during partition. However, now this is their last origin lands and I am not ashamed or apprehensive to accept that their faith is from where my own school of thought was born a.k.a Buddhism. Now within this country also their pains and sensitivities are not being addressed by the government. Despite repeated comments and complaints, the government decided to play partisan roles against them.

    Then you tell me, how will people feel secure? I am specifically talking about semi-rural, rural, semi-urban lower-middle class mainstream Hindus who neither have political power, nor have monetary clout to buy politicians and so on. So how they vent out their frustrations against religious bullying that is not commonly shown by our bigoted media? They join nationalist and even far right wing organizations who gradually grow in size and clout as more and more frustrated people join them.

    The same has happened with those whom many secular-extremists call "racist, terrorists, dirty". There is a reason why they are so angry and resort to violence. Violence is wrong in such situations, but this is a reactionary force.


    I can completely understand the situation as I am deeply spiritual and am aware of customs of all Indic branches of Dharma. You have to understand that evil does not vanish from the face of earth. It never has and it never will. Evil has existed always as the other side of Good. No community is impervious to evil in any forms including this caste system that most extreme-secularists like to run around with.

    In that case I want to ask you; Which religion does not categorically discriminate or divide? I shall state you something that you will not be able to deny:

    Christianity claims that it worships one God, has one book and has one religion.. Now come down to this:

    Latin Catholics would not go to Roman Catholic Churches.

    These 2 will not go to Marthoma Church.

    These 3 will not go to Pentecost Church.

    These 4 will not go to Salvation Army Church.

    These 5 will not go to Orthodox Church.

    These 6 will not go to Seventh Day Adventist Church.

    These 7 will not go to a Jaobite Church.

    Islam too claims one God, one Book, one Religion.. but:

    Sunnis don't worship with Shias and vice versa.

    Ismailis don't worship with these 2.

    None of these will ever join with Sufi places of worship.

    All these won't ever join up in a Druze (extended branch of Islam) place.

    Wahhabis/Salafis consider all these as heretics.

    Still you believe that these missionaries or mullahs are offering something different from what people are already in?

    No. They are offering NOTHING different to these so-called lower castes. Do you know why? Because division and superiority complex is imbibed in the genes of mankind. No matter how homogenous one might want to be, after sometime one leader will say "hey I am superior to your kind" and divisions will start.

    Now before terming mainstream Hindus as "getting more violent" and "oppressing minorities", think about this"

    They have 1,280 basic religious texts, 10,000 Commentaries, more than one lakh sub-commentaries for these foundation books,
    33 million forms of deities and forms of numerous Gods, innumerable Aacharyas, thousands of Rishies, And, Hindus speak hundreds of languages.
    Now pack this up with Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains. We Buddhists mainly have 3 main schools of thought, divided into 6 more sub-divisions and then those have dozens of different schools of thought. Jains have 2 main schools of though and many other sub-schools of thought.

    Still, all of them go to all the temples.

    Where exactly was RSS in so much prominence before? Has anyone thought about it? Where was his VHP and Bajrang Dal and other organizations earlier in 60s, 70s and 80s etc? Nowhere on the political radar. Not even 1/10th the political heft they have today. Why? What made them grow? What caused this support to increase? What caused this increasing support base to become stronger? What emotions were behind it of the people? Why is it that other sister faiths also have smaller branches of their organizations? How come I, being a Buddhist (and mind you there are many nowadays emerging) am defending them if they are really violent, hate-filled and evil as an organization? Please think.

    I am Sikkimese by origin but am Delhi-born and brought up, only to have moved into Sikkim in my adult life. Don't worry, I am very familiar with how mainstream Hindus live and the problems. As I mentioned above, I have taken a keen interest in researching the venerable common way of life of all the four branches of Indic faiths.

    About the bolded part, even the proselytizers do the same later on. There are a lot of re-converts I have met during my travels around the country (mind you, my job makes me travel mainly internationally but also all over South Asia except Pakistan) who tell that they were far better off returning back to whoever they were because of the treatment they got despite all conversions. Some of them Buddhists from my own state have gone to the extent to vouch for how the conversion begins with condemning Buddhist philosophy and concepts and how first their own culture is demonized so that these innocent people hate it and embrace the new 'religions'.

    This RSS meet may not be exactly as violent and dangerous as it is portrayed by our yellow media so we must keep some amount of Margin of Error as well, just as we keep for defence related news whenever some dumb journalist adds a couple of zeros or cannot distinguish between a MiG and a Sukhoi.

    Often readers go blue hearing the name "RSS" as if its referred to LET without going in depth about what the organization stands for. I am not saying that RSS is 100% pure. Just like Army, Political parties, administration, ministries, etc have corrupt elements, even this is likely to have corrupt elements and there's no denying to that since corruption will exist wherever there is human element involved. No denying.

    But secular-fascists must stop painting them in the same color as an organization just as they are ready to accept that entire religions are not terrorists but fringe elements. Tell me, am I correct or not? Without knowing both sides of a coin, can the coin be judged?

    About the clashes in Meghalaya, this is what they want you to believe: a drunken brawl. Only, it wasn't a drunken brawl as shown on the surface. Often such riots are given the garb of trivial events and passed off so that only "Hindu radicals" are blamed for any fallout. This has started happening even in Arunachal albeit very less compared to other NE states.

    The tragedy is that in our country, secularism means condemning, refusing to take pride in, not being vocal, not being concerned and being ashamed of Indic faiths especially a pressure on mainstream Hindus and to some extent on Buddhists and Sikhs. This twisted and corrupted meaning of "secularism" in this country is the reason that has pressed a lot of frustrated people to right wing thinking. And I have experienced this personally.

    Blaming only one side of the coin simply simply does not cut it, does it?

    I hope you take my comments here positively and with a calm mind and think what I am saying. I am sure you will see reason. :). Just for assurance I would remind you that I too am a 'minority'.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
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  15. Karthic Sri

    Karthic Sri <b>STAR MEMBER of the MONTH</b> SENIOR MEMBER

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    And what exactly is 'senseless' in that. Care to explain ?

    So I expect you would agree that 'Forced Conversion' are hardly showing the true path..eh ?

    Unless it is Xtians getting back to Hinduism - their mother religion. In that case hell is reserved for them and 'terrorists' are unleasing their violence. :lol:

    What a bunch of self-serving loads.

    Absolutely no.

    But how come all these 'secularists' are quiet for what is happening in Mangalore and other parts of coastal Karnataka ?

    Why dont they condemn that also.?? Why only Hindus ??
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
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