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Russia cannot give India sophisticated Stealth Technology

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by lca-fan, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Russia cannot give India sophisticated Stealth Technology

    • [​IMG]

    On Mar. 9 the Times of India reported that Delhi is making extra demands to Moscow when it comes to the joint production of a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Citing sources in the Indian Defence Ministry, the report said that India would go in for this joint venture only under the condition of a full-scale technology transfer and if Russia provided help in the development of the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

    According to the paper, the Indian side bases such demands on the experience of the Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore ($8.4 billion) without any “tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.” The recipient company Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is still unable to manufacture the Sukhois on its own, the paper noted.

    RIR asked experts to explain whether Indian demands were justified and where the real problem lay.


    ‘Red line’ in technology transfer ::

    Without a doubt, there are some limitations on the extent to which a country would transfer its military technology, experts believe. According to Alexander Ermakov, expert at the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), this especially concerns critical types of technology that influence the ability of a country to ensure its security: most importantly missile technology, communications and electronic warfare systems.

    The limitations always vary depending on the client. While bilateral relations do play a role, it is also important for a partner to “bargain” for certain technology, Ermakov thinks.

    “If Indonesia, for instance, makes a request to Russia for a batch of 8-12 Su-35 multi-role fighters, it is unlikely that Moscow would discuss any technology transfer,” Konstantin Makienko, Deputy Director of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, explains. “On the contrary, when China bought 48 Su-27 aircraft in early and mid-1990s, this allowed for an opportunity to transfer this technology to China within a licensed production contract.” The larger the amount of requested supplies, the better is the chance for discussing potential technology transfer, Makienko believes.

    Trading technologies is also much easier for a country like Russia when a partner shares the same geostrategic and military interests and there is a history of past fruitful cooperation. India is in the best position here, unlike Pakistan, which Makienko calls “unstable and unpredictable and to an extent, an analogue of Ukraine in South Asia.”


    Privileged partnership with India ::

    While India is enjoying a privileged status among Russian partners, there are obstacles that hamper it from producing Russian defence technology using its own industrial capabilities.

    “Moscow puts no limitations whatsoever on military technology transfer to Delhi,” Vasily Kashin, senior research fellow at the Moscow Based Institute for Far Eastern Studies and at the Higher School of Economics, told RIR.

    He says it is the ability of India to pay for a certain technology and localize it that determines the scale and effectiveness of such cooperation. The problem with the Su-30MKI case is that the progress is not happening as fast as planned due to difficulties in local industrial production, lack of skilled labour and low adherence to technological requirements.

    Kanwal Sibal, former Indian Foreign Secretary and Ambassador to Russia (2004-2007), acknowledges that this problem does exist.

    “India has failed to develop an indigenous defence manufacturing industry even though its defence requirements are huge,” Sibal told RIR. “We are at times the largest importer of arms in the world. This is absurd for a country that is faced with major security challenges. The Russian connection has given us advanced arms but not the capacity to build them on our own.”


    Make jointly ::

    In this respect, India is lagging behind China which has been successfully localizing and modernizing acquired technologies. If Russia decides to seriously opt for joint development and production of military equipment and accept more interdependence, it would be a game-changer for India.

    Makienko thinks this is a natural step in the evolution of defence cooperation between the countries, which started in 1962. “Now we should move toward joint projects and joint development of new technologies and we should, in fact, talk about the promotion of the ‘Make jointly in India and Russia’ brand,” he says.

    While Sibal echoes his view, he also warns that learning to work within the current Make in India programme might be hard for Russian firms. “This will be a challenge for Russian companies as the model so far has been to deal with public sector units in India through government to government agreements,” he told RIR.

    Overcoming these obstacles would bring the sides closer to more interdependence and make joint ventures such as the FGFA more large-scale.

    “The FGFA programme was conceived to give India access to critical design capability. If that happens to the degree expected, it would be a major breakthrough for the future,” Sibal says.
    http://www.defencenews.in/article/Russia-cannot-give-India-sophisticated-Stealth-Technology-251027

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  2. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    There is no such trustable ally shit in geopolitics .Only nation's own permanent interests .
    We shouldnt bend for them even if they give special relation to Pakistan.
    We will give them money but we need technologies .Otherwise we can end this obsessive expense here .

    Develop our own capabilities ,donot rely on other nations be it US or Russia .
    We have a bright future than Russia .Dont need to fear them.
     
  3. Marqueur

    Marqueur Peaceful Silence ELITE MEMBER

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    we have to invest lots of money in R&D ... its just foolish the assume that some other country will give us cutting edge tech tech ... rather than trowing money at someone else ... invest that money in our countries R&D ... gov. n private firms
     
    SrNair, madmax613, thesolar65 and 3 others like this.
  4. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Who will teach this to our import happy Army, IAF Personnel. We can't fight with someone else's or borrowed muscles we will have to develop our own. The sooner these people realize this the better.
     
  5. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Nothing like that.

    Only thing I would say is, anything the media says on FGFA, treat that as rubbish !
     
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  6. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I wouldn't comment on the Source....It might as well be rubbish. But one thing we all can agree upon here is that all this stuff is terribly late....Both the AMCA and the FGFA....

    I don't know why people on our side expect ToT from anyone....anyway
    If you want technology you either steal it or develop it yourself....Both of which, It seems we are incapable of doing effectively, quickly or in some cases 'at all' .

    I hope I see the first FGFA or PAK-FA squadron by 2030 and the first AMCA squadron by 2040...


    The Chinese have already put "in service" the J-20...AFAIK it's in LRIP/IOC phase now...For all we know...They will have a full fledged squadron by 2019 and Full Rate Production by 2018-2019.


    Hopefully this gives the GoI and MoD incentive to gather up their mess and start Focusing on rapid development on our side...



    ======================================================================


    As Far as Pakistan is concerned...The Chinese will push towards Pakistan whatever weapons they seem necessary to keep what they call "strategic balance of Power"...No Matter if Pakistan can pay for it or not....So Chinese weapons development should be of concern to us...But it seems no one really cares about it...I have yet too see any substantial effort from the MoD or the GoI to build and effective edge or defence over Chinese Strategy or Weapons...or Diplomacy...We still have no answer for the Chinese BRI...We just oppose it diplomatically.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  7. Aqwoyk

    Aqwoyk Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    There is one thing I would say .................we should leave all this IMRH , Amphibious plane , Regional aircraft bakchodi aside and instead all three of our sarkari aerospace institution must divert all our resources and funds to realize LSA or other 5th gen aircraft in 3- 6 years ...........
     
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  8. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Brother, the Desi Alternative i.e the AMCA is still a couple of decades away... (or atleast a decade and a half) And let's not forget the experiences the LCA left in the AF's mind...It has yet to achieve FOC....The Mk.2 is just on paper now.

    When there is no Desi alternative....The AF will obviously look elsewhere right.
     
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  9. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    No country shares or needs to share the core technologies they have worked on for decades to achieve and spent billions on...there are no shortcuts. Even China had to steal a lot of engine tech.

    US wouldn't share it's core stealth tech with even UK.

    It seems to me that a lot of people are having unrealistic expectations from the FGFA project. This is the only practical way forward and in fact the FGFA gives us far more operational & technical freedom than any other 5th gen fighter we can potentially buy (I'm looking at you, F-35), never forget that.

    I've said this countless times before and I say it again: We can't and are not looking to plunder Russia's IPRs in the field of stealth or aerospace just because we are paying to create an India-specific version of an existing Russian aircraft (that's right, the PAK-FA is already flying and there is no Indian contribution in it, money or tech-wise). What we want and what we'll get is a version of PAK-FA that is tailored to our needs, can make use of several Indian/3rd party technologies used by IAF, and who's final-assembly takes place inside of India, bringing quite a bit of employment as well as profitable economic activity to the country...while also reducing costs of importing everything.

    That's leagues & bounds ahead of anything you can expect from US alternatives.

    And please don't ridicule yourself by suggesting indigenous alternatives. They are all made of paper & other dreamy stuff. It's a stretch to even expect to have Tejas Mk-2 delivered to service by 2025-2027...and don't forget that local companies know exactly zilch about 5th gen tech. They have never seen it in a lab, in action or anywhere else. It'll require billions just for R&D (as we're not the stealing type, atleast not in the same magnitude as the Chinese) and even then the PAK-FA will still be better.

    Simplest solution: Get FGFA, have it locally assembled. Get 5th gen air superiority fighters in IAF's hands ASAP. Then, work slowly on developing AMCA as a 5th gen swing-role aircraft i.e. the F-35 to FGFA's F-22.
     
  10. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Bullshit, AMCA is the project of ADA, and till now GOI, or IAF haven't ordered or persued toward its full scale development for its induction. The author is cooking baseless stories.
     
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  11. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Going through this thread....I just realised the whole dam# scene is FUBAR.... Everything is best described as a 'Complete Mess'...

    There seems to be no clear path to the FGFA....The Russians seem to be pissing on our ToT ambitions (just like with the MKI or in fact just like every smart country on the planet does I.e not sharing hard developed technology)


    Our Desi Programs are an 'almost disaster'...

    The Mk2 is on Paper...Mk1 is Yet to Get FoC heck...Even the Mk1A is yet to FLY.

    A lot of people argued that since LCA was our first attempt it ought to be slow....And that future projects will be quick.

    But looking at the AMCA....It seems to be as slow, if not slower....I don't expect a full FoC squadron before 2035.....

    How did we even get here....How !?

    Our Aerospace Projects be it the SARAS...NISHANT....RUSTOM-II have been absolute failures.... Absolute Failures.




    Why can't we get this area right even after decades of research. Why !?


    We need a radical approach if we are to change things....The GoI and the MoD need to think very very hard about it.
     
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  12. Aqwoyk

    Aqwoyk Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Ye sb mikle aur hmko pagal bna rhe h :troll:
     
  13. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    They are also cares about it but we dont have an industry .This is just plain inability .
    Forces should accept the short comings of prototype and indigenous weapons .
    We are not going for a war tommorrow.

    Aggressive push should begin for indigenous AMCA .
    Chinese will give weapons to Pakistan until we match equal to equal in quantity and quality against China .
     
  14. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Full fledged exported rate MIC will give you enough strength to dominate this world .
    Best example,this Russians themselves .
    Now they have an economy that is just 1.2 trillion$.But they can challenge US face to face and can shiver the spines of Europeans .
    China still cant do that because they dont have an weapons tech like Russians .

    So until our DRDO or private firms able to develop something like S 400 or F22 ,we will face this black mail.
     
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  15. SrNair

    SrNair Captain FULL MEMBER

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    For How long ?
    How long you can go like this ?
    We are a big nation ,with a big economy but not sufficient MIC.
     

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