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Russia set to take part in new Indian submarine tender

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by flanker143, Jul 2, 2011.

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  1. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Type 214 is just an export version of Type-212. It lacks a few features like AIP. But our RFP requires an AIP. So with such features included, a Type-214 will essentially be a Type-212.
     
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  2. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Type 212 is far stealthier than the Lada class or Amur class. It has the most efficient fuel cells in place. It can switch to only AIP fuel cells for complete stealth. There is almost no noise emitted from the submarine in this mode. It becomes almost impossible to detect it when its in AIP mode. It is even smaller, so that reduces its chances of being detected.

    Type-212 can remain submerged for over 80 days, and up to 21 days without snorkeling. Lada class needs to come to surface every 45 days. Not to mention, Type-212 can dive more than most of submarines can even think of, up to 700 meters.

    Btw, Russian Lada class looks like this from inside.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You can see the quality.
     
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  3. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    As per my knowledge, gotland class submarines of Sweden are the best conventional submarines at present.

    In 2004, the Swedish government received a request from the United States of America to lease HMS Gotland – Swedish-flagged, commanded and manned, for a duration of one year for use in anti-submarine warfare exercises. The Swedish government granted this request in October 2004, with both navies signing a memorandum of understanding on March 21, 2005.The lease was extended for another 12 months in 2006. In July 2007, HMS Gotland departed San Diego for Sweden.

    HMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of the USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean, effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier. The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US Fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking.

    -- Source Wikipedia.

    However my personal opnion is why are we still going for conventional subs when we already have the technology of n-subs. Have SSNs and SSBNs with unlimited endurance under sea without the need of coming to surface for months. We already have in development SSBN in INS Arihant undergoing trials. We are already leasing Nerpa which is Russian SSN.
    The only logic justifying more purchase is numbers till we have adequate n-subs. The one offering AIP and ability to launch 1000 kms range cruise missiles will be ideal.
     
  4. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Diesel-electric subs are quieter and stealthier than Nuclear subs. Nuclear subs can remain submerged for longer durations but the reactor makes a noise which is impossible to silence.

    Subs with Fuel cells are the future. They have virtually no noise, and with AIP, they can remain submerged for over 50-60 days. That's more than one would ever need to be submerged. It completely defeats the purpose of Nuclear subs. The only advantage nuclear subs have is that they don't need to be refueled ever.

    Type-212 has a range of over 14000 kms. That is more than enough for navies that are going to limit themselves to 1-2 oceans. It can also remain submerged for 85 days. That's almost 3 months. We don't need to remain submerged for any more than that. I don't think even a war will last that long.
     
  5. Skull and Bones

    Skull and Bones Doctor Death Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Does our Scorpenes we ordered have AIP? If not, then can that be fitted later on? Given that DRDO is working on their own AIP project from quite some time.
     
  6. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    3 of them won't have AIP, while last 3 would be fitted with French MESMA AIP system.
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  8. Nirvana

    Nirvana Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    What can You expect from 30 - 40 year Old Fighter Jets Like Mig 21 [which have Completed their Service Life ] ?

    Besides Russian are not providing us Junk Sub
     
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  9. Capt.Popeye

    Capt.Popeye Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Since you don't know, Russian Subs have been in service in the IN for quite some time now; the Kilo class. Please do some research on that.
     
  10. Young Wolf

    Young Wolf 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    amur will almost definitely be stealthier than type 212..... Russians have based this sub on the kilo class ( which is already one of the quietest in the world) and have added many more stealth characteristics making it many times stealthier than the kilo...... And russians have already ordered 12 of these subs and construction has begun......
    And india wants a large submarine this time so the smaller size of the type 212 is actually a disadvantage......
     
  11. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Actually smaller size is an advantage unless you are going in for an SSN. Btw, stealth depends on the noise, and nothing is less noisier than silence, which U-212's Fuel cells deliver.
     
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  12. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    U 212 was available when the contract for scorpenes was made.I don't know why IN selected the scorpenes at first hand. Mesma AIP systems of DCNS have competition in German fuel cell technology made by siemens. Learnt that Turkey and Pakistan are going for U214 subs. Perhaps both these subs will be in competition in Project 75I.
     
  13. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Although major naval powers like the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union turned quickly to submarine nuclear propulsion as soon as it became technically feasible, smaller navies have remained committed to conventional diesel-electric submarines, largely for coastal defense. Many of these have incorporated innovations originally pioneered in the German Type XXI, but more recently, growing demand for longer underwater endurance has generated increasing interest in promising AIP technologies, both old and new. Currently, system developers are actively pursuing the following generic approaches for achieving "closed cycle" operation:

    Closed-cycle diesel engines, generally with stored liquid oxygen (LOX)
    Closed-cycle steam turbines
    Stirling-cycle heat engines with external combustion
    Hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells
    Closed-cycle Diesel Engines
    Typically, a closed-cycle diesel (CCD) install- ation incorporates a standard diesel engine that can be operated in its conventional mode on the surface or while snorkeling. Underwater, however, it runs on an artificial atmosphere synthesized from stored oxygen, an inert gas (generally argon), and recycled exhaust products. The engine exhaust - largely carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor - is cooled, scrubbed, and separated into its constituents, with the argon recycled back to the intake manifold. The remaining exhaust gas is mixed with seawater and discharged overboard. Generally, the required oxygen is stored in liquid form - LOX - in cryogenic tanks.

    CCD systems have been developed by a number of firms in Germany, Britain, the Netherlands, and a few other countries. However, except for a 300-horsepower demonstration system refitted onto the German Navy's ex-U 1 in 1993, no modern CCD systems have entered naval service. England's Marconi Marine recently acquired CCD pioneer Carlton Deep Sea Systems and is marketing a CCD retrofit package for existing conventional submarines, such as South Korea's nine Type 209s. Although one key advantage of CCD systems is their relatively easy backfit into existing submarine engineering plants, there have been no takers. Despite the additional supply complication of needing regular replenishment of cryogenic oxygen and inert gas, there are logistics advantages in retaining standard diesel engines and using normal diesel fuel.

    Closed-cycle Steam Turbines
    The only steam-turbine AIP under active investigation is the French MESMA system (Module d'Energie Sous-Marin Autonome). This is essentially a conventional Rankine-cycle turbo-alternator powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

    Basically, the MESMA approach is a derivative of French nuclear-propulsion experience using non-nuclear steam generation. Although MESMA can provide higher output power than the other alternatives, its inherent efficiency is the lowest of the four AIP candidates, and its rate of oxygen consumption is correspondingly higher. The first full-scale undersea application will be in Pakistan's three new Agosta 90B submarines, which will each be fitted with a 200 kilowatt MESMA system for increasing submerged endurance by a factor of three to five at a speed of 4 knots. The first installation is expected to be completed in 2001.

    Stirling-cycle Engines
    In the Stirling cycle, heat from an outside source is transferred to an enclosed quantity of working fluid - generally an inert gas - and drives it through a repeating sequence of thermodynamic changes. By expanding the gas against a piston and then drawing it into a separate cooling chamber for subsequent compression, the heat from external combustion can be converted to mechanical work and then, in turn, to electricity. Like MESMA, this approach has an advantage over internal combustion systems, such as the CCD, in that the combustion processes can be kept separate from those that actually convert heat to mechanical work. This provides significant flexibility in dealing with exhaust products and controlling acoustic radiation.

    The Stirling-cycle engine forms the basis of the first AIP system to enter naval service in recent times. The Swedish builders, Kockums Naval Systems, tested a prototype plant at sea in 1989, and today, three Swedish Gotland-class boats are each fitted with two adjunct, 75 kilowatt Stirling-cycle propulsion units that burn liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to generate electricity for either propulsion or charging batteries within a conventional diesel-electric plant. The resulting underwater endurance of the 1,500-ton boats is reported to be up to 14 days at five knots, but significant burst speeds are possible when the batteries are topped up.

    Fuel Cells
    In simplest terms, a fuel cell is an electrochemical conversion device that combines hydrogen and oxygen to produce water, electricity, and heat. Fuel cells are already seeing a number of promising applications in the space and automotive industries, and many authorities believe that fuel cells offer the best potential for developing more capable AIP systems in the future. There are several alternative configurations, but for submarine propulsion, so-called "Polymer Electrolyte Membrane" (PEM) fuel cells have attracted the most attention because of their low operating temperatures (80° Centigrade) and relatively little waste heat. In a PEM device, pressurized hydrogen gas (H2) enters the cell on the

    In a typical fuel cell, gaseous hydrogen and oxygen are combined catalytically to produce water, heat, and useful electricity. Already successful in the U.S. space program, fuel cells are seeing increasing use as submarine power sources.
    anode side, where a platinum catalyst decomposes each pair of molecules into four H+ ions and four free electrons. The electrons depart the anode into the external circuit - the load - as an electric current. Meanwhile, on the cathode side, each oxygen molecule (O2) is catalytically dissociated into separate atoms, using the electrons flowing back from the external circuit to complete their outer electron "shells." The polymer membrane that separates anode and cathode is impervious to electrons, but allows the positively-charged H+ ions to migrate through the cell toward the negatively charged cathode, where they combine with the oxygen atoms to form water. Thus, the overall reaction can be represented as 2H2 + O2 => 2H2O, and a major advantage of the fuel-cell approach is that the only "exhaust" product is pure water. Since a single fuel cell generates only about 0.7 volts DC (direct current), groups of cells are "stacked" together in series to produce a larger and more useful output. The stacks can also be arrayed in parallel to increase the amount of current available.

    The greatest challenge for fuel-cell AIP systems lies in storing the reactants. Although oxygen can be handled with relative safety as LOX, storing hydrogen onboard as a liquid or high-pressure gas is very dangerous. One solution is to carry the hydrogen in metal hydride accumulators, at low pressure and ambient sea temperature. (A metal hydride is a solid compound of hydrogen and metallic alloy, in which individual hydrogen atoms occupy interstitial positions in the host metal's crystalline lattice. By manipulating temperature and pressure, hydrogen gas can be absorbed or released at will.) Another, less efficient, approach is to generate gaseous hydrogen from a stored liquid hydrocarbon such as diesel fuel, kerosene, or methanol. This requires an auxiliary device called a "reformer," in which a mixture of hydrocarbon and water is vaporized and superheated under pressure to yield a mixture of hydrogen and carbon dioxide.

    Several manufacturers are currently offering fuel cell systems for submarine AIP. Prominent among these is the German Siemens firm, which is collaborating with Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) and Italy's Fincantieri to supply fuel cell installations for the forthcoming 1,840-ton German and Italian U 212-class submarines. These will consist of nine PEM fuel-cell modules each nominally rated at 34 kilowatts, to yield a total of approximately 300 kilowatts (400 horsepower). With metal-hydride hydrogen storage, the system is predicted to yield 14 days submerged endurance and the ability to run up to eight knots on the fuel cells alone. Siemens is working on a next-generation PEM module rated at 120 kilowatts, and two of these will be incorporated into HDW's 1,860-ton U 214 boats, planned as export successors to the U 212 series. Other nations, such as Russia and Canada - the latter with significant under-ice requirements - are also considering fuel-cell modules for either new construction or for upgrading older boats.

    Source: The U.S. Navy
     
  14. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt Major ELITE MEMBER

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    U-212 isn't offered to anyone. It is TOP tech. The best in the world. A downgraded version U-214 is on offer.

    But with the kind of money India is putting in, I am sure we can get some U-212s, and still spare a lot of money.
    Here, check this out.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
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