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Russian Ambassador to Turkey Andrey Karlov Shot Dead in Ankara

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by Aero, Dec 20, 2016.

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  1. Dagger

    Dagger 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Thanks for your answer. Very Good Perspective.

    Some points
    I really dont get the idea that a democracy which includes both Sunnis and Shias of Iraq is possible in the first place, considering the level of radicalisation. After a certain degree of radicalisation in the general populace mixed with illiteracy, no way to talk through it. If one sect sits for talks , some others blow up and you are back to square one.
    An insurgency as unprecedented as ISIS getting sustained, cannot be done without the tacit support of atleast some major % of the population.
    I cant really buy the argument that some section did not get their democratic rights , so they went full ISIS - They would have gone ISIS whatever rights you give them. A dictatorial rule till a certain deradicalisation and education was the solution.

    Second, I am finding it really difficult to believe that the CIA accused in the first place with just the satellite maps. Remembering it was Putin who first exposed the Trucks of oil, At one point of time both CIA and Russia were accusing turkey. I just believe US was making up with Turkey - as your second link indicates.

    Third, Considering recent atttacks and the support to Erdogan by the islamists, and recent news ,vociferous support for the jailings - There is a section of the population radicalised enough and ISIS is growing in strength using this ground support in Turkey. This is surely going to go south fast unless action is taken soon. Before they have the power to strike anywhere and everybody shuts up. and the only loud voice is the extremist.
    I say this because, everybody who deals with the GCC - gets bitten with this ideology and the journey to hell begins (Syria Pak Egypt).


    I also read forums where some Turkish people started shouting, US and a CIA-Gulen conspiracy for the attack. I am aware of the basic accusation. But does everybody in Turkey belive this? or is there a sharp divide which believes that this is just an excuse for tyrannical moves. Are the anti Gulen types (also the type against US action in middle east) a majority?
    What are your thoughts on Gulen?

    Incidentally, very curious that these same ones, who accuse US as killing people in the middle east, also call for the blood of the Assad regime, who the US is acting against. IF anything they should be supporting the US.

    Finally, I am sorry for the recent trouble your country has been having. Hope you people of Turkey can hold it together and tide over.
     
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  2. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    For it to end you need a dictator with absolute power who can force the people to accept each other as is,if not,set some examples,execute the leaders.
    Some people just cannot live under a democracy(mostly Arabs,im not a racist,its just a fact).
    It has nothing to do with democratic rights,it has more to do with ''living'' rights,many Sunnis got slaughtered by Shias just for being Sunni,even Christians,i have a Christian Iraqi friend from Bagdad here in the Netherlands,they killed his father brothers sisters for just being Christian,if you would listen to the stories.
    What Saddam did to the Shias and Kurds,they are doing back.
    People dont become an ISIS member over night.
    Why would a Sunni general served under Saddam(modern) for decades suddenly become an ISIS member,you really think he had sympathy for the worst Sharia Law rule in history?
    There had to be another plausible reason which i gave you.
    In the US,(you wont believe this but it is what it is) the Pentagon and the CIA picked different sides in the Iraq Syria mess,it is so complicated to explain that it would take years.
    In short,
    The CIA an Obama - YPG,Iraqi government,Iran(with all of the Shia militias)
    The Pentagon - Turkiye,KRG(Peshmerga),FSA an the GCC
    There has never been an oil trade between Turkiye and ISIS,it was a Russian/Syrian businessman who did the trade but thats another story.
    Russia accusing my country came after the shooting down of the Russian SU-24 of the Russian Airforce,when relations between both countries were at its lowest point,if this trade was going on,why not come up with it before?
    The same goes for the CIA,after losing its grip on Erdogan(both Erdogan and Gulen worked for the CIA),they were both from the same gang but Erdogan rebelled and faced the consquences,media war against my country,terrorist attacks,keeping the YPG west of the Euphrates river while promising to move them to the east of the river.not supporting the zafe-zone,working against Turkish interests etc..
    Cia and Russia both accusing Erdogan means:''enemy of my enemy............''
    Yeah,you can forget about that ever happening to my country,we are no Arabs(no offence),maybe 4/5% in my country are extremist but they will never turn my country into an extremist sh!thole,we would never allow that.
    I know it will sound cocky but we are Turks,we have never been slaves to nobody and will never be.
    50% of the people believe it because the CIA had a hand in every coup attempt(all succeeded accept the last one) in my country,think of the coups in South America(all CIA planned and executed),thats why people believe it was the CIA.
    About 25% believe its an excuse to get absolute power.
    If the CIA does a coup attempt,it always succeeds,every time and its done by the whole Army,not some unimportant generals and colonels,a couple of tanks and some conscripts who were just following orders(some were lynched by Erdogans scum).
    90% is anti Gulen but they all wanted action from the US against Assad because of the refugees an the 300k dead people.
    Gulen is a mart guy using religion and education to gain power in every country where he is represented,Erdogan is what he is because of Gulen,Gulen helped him to power,for me they are both traitors to the Turkish people identity and country.
    I would have hanged them both but first cut them to pieces(make sure they stay alive),salt and pepper,grill and then feed them to the rats but i dont think i would be satisfied yet.
    There you are wrong,if Obama held his words on the ''red lines'' and go in with the allies,Assad would either be killed or ran out of the country in a week,there was no Russia then.
    So,the US is not acting against Assad.
    Think about this,
    If the US wants it,Assad is history,so why didnt Obama finish Assad?
    The days of ''good USA'' are over in the Muslim world,Obama is the worst president ever for the USs image.maybe Trump will change that.
    Thank you,we are used to it,we'll get over it somehow.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
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  3. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    No, I think your Government never insisted on it enough in order to remain on good terms with the Gulf countries. It's time someone in the Muslim world called their bluff.
     
  4. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    OFFICIALLY!!! they would never acknowledge their support for terrorists bro. i agree that Obama was spineless. you are correct about their breeding though. i dont think that democracy is possible under these circumstances in nations like iraq. the power struggle between sunnis and shias wont end any time soon and the problem with that they don't know how to peacefully co-exist as their barbaric instincts have stuck around with them and there is no such thing as peaceful co-existence in islam.
     
  5. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    Why not?
    Turkiye,Indonesia,Azerbaijan,Malaysia,Morocco,Albania,Turkmenistan,Kazakhistan are some examples where not only Muslims live in co-existence but other faiths to.
     
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  6. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    those are not ruled by extremist sympathizers( i doubt turkey comes under that list). even muslims in India are also fine with other religions.
    Indonesia-99% Sunnis
    Azerbaijan-85% shia
    Malaysian muslims are mostly Sunnis
    Morocco-99% Sunnis
    Albania-Sunnis majority with little shia population
    Turkmenistan- mostly Sunnis
    Kazakhstan-mostly Sunnis.
    most of the above countries population follows either Sunni or shia and they are inherently non extremist countries and most important of all free from western and arabic influence which plays a huge role. Iraq has one of the most stable governments under saddam hussein and so does syria until western and arab nations started to support insurgency.
    go and ask any Iraqi or Syrian why they are in this position now and they will tell you why.
    well Turkey isn't as stable as one might think. there is a military coup recently and no one knows when another coup might take place and god knows how many people are loyal to erdogan after all this mess.
    And BTW its TURKEY not Turkiye. its embarrassing when you misspell your own countries name.
     
  7. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    Use your brain before making such a comment,the name of my country is Türkiye to be exact so,dont tell me what to call my country.
    On every forum i write the real name Türkiye and not what the english speaking countries call it,got it???
    Isnt it ambarrasing that you didnt get why i always write Türkiye ?

    To topic,what kind of answer was that to this comment of yours ''there is no such thing as peaceful co-existence in islam''?
    You didnt name specific countries but the religion,we call that contradiction.
    Why dont you just say;the Arab world?
     
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  8. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    for some fool who doesn't live in his own insecure country proves how insecure you feel. if i am wrong correct me buddy. don't lose your bullocks over that.
    i guess i named the countries and what population over there practices. use your eyes to read about that and talk to me runt.
     
  9. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    It has nothing to do with insecurity,im in my country every month(at least a couple of days).
    Do you really think that after 40 years with terrorist attacks,Turks can be afraid of it?
    I was in Van(a big city in the South East,google it) just last month for two days,you think anyone who is afraid would go there?
    You become immune to it,people go on with their daily lives,if it happens it happens,nobody gives a sh!t.
    I used my eyes and you generalized,instead of that,you could have named the Muslims who cant live in co-existance in Islam,namely the Arab Muslims and countries under their influence.
     
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  10. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    i said that before. i said that countries outside of western and arab influence are different. post number 36 read it again bro. you did not get me there.
     
  11. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    Yes i have read it and i also read the last sentence(no co-existence in Islam).
    Just know that religion is never the problem,only the people are and its always about power,nothing else.
    What if the GCC countries and Iran under the Mullah regime wouldnt have oil and gas?
    Lesser problems in the Muslim world.
     
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  12. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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    isnt idol worshipping is punishable offence in Islam by Death
    (your words, today, somewhere else:butcher:)
     
  13. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    without oil those countries would actually be poor desert countries with no power. let me clarify i am only against radical elements in islam and muslim world and infact in any religion. those elements get blinded by power which they got from their money accumulated by their oil sales. they actually find reasons to engage in conflict with others.
     
  14. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    My words,where?



    ''In Quran we are commanded not to divide ourselves into sects. Thus dividing our religion into sects is against God's command. Those who divide into sects are termed as idol worshippers, and not members of God's religion.''

    Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.

    You shall submit to Him, reverence Him, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and - whatever you do - do not ever fall into idol worship.
    (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.


    Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.

    ''We learn from above that dividing religion into sects is akin to falling into idol worship, an unforgivable sin (if maintained to death). It doesn't matter what a person calls his or her sect, it is not authorized by God. God condemns all sects.''
     
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  15. T-123456

    T-123456 2nd Lieutant THINKER

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    So am i.
     

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