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Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Antonius, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Antonius

    Antonius Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow


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    Is the Russian arms industry getting soft?

    Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

    That contrasts sharply with high hopes voiced by the Indian government when the joint project, to which the Indian government has contributed $6 billion, began.

    “[The new plane] will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities,” the Indian government said in a December 2010 press release. Those are all hallmarks of “fifth generation” aircraft.

    The Indian Air Force did not respond to a request for comment.

    But it is hardly surprising that the invisible-to-radar Russian fighter planes don't quite live up to the billing, according to defense experts reached by FoxNews.com.

    “The Russians are certainly not up to speed in avionics,” Robbin Laird, who has served as a consultant to the Marine Corps and Air Force and started the website Second Line of Defense, told FoxNews.com. “For them to pull off a stealth airframe, and for it to actually be stealthy, the engine technology has to be very good. Americans have done it with the F-22 and F-35. But it’s not easy to do. No one has done it but ourselves.”

    India is the largest arms importer in world, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, and its military import large amounts from both Russia and western countries.

    “The Indians for a long time have split their fighter industry between western work and Russian work,” Laird said.

    “Clearly they want to go more Western because they recognize that the Russian stuff just isn't up to the western standards. You only have so much money to go around, and like everybody else they've got financial pressures,” he added.

    Other security experts said that India has a history of incompetence when it comes to military procurement, and so it did not necessarily reflect badly on Russia.

    “India has had so many problems absorbing modern equipment and supporting it that it’s difficult to know whether it says anything about the Russian systems at all,” Anthony Cordesman, who has served as a consultant for the State and Defense departments and who holds the Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told FoxNews.com.

    Laird said that the Indians may be souring on the Russian deal in part to save funds so they can build more French-designed Dassault Rafale fighter jets, which can be built relatively quickly, unlike the still-to-be-designed “fifth-generation” planes under development with the Russians.

    “The Rafale is a very nice aircraft, and they'll look at all the stuff the French are putting on that aircraft, and they'll look at the Russian stuff and say, why am I going down that path? Do I trust the Russians really are going to reach to the standards we set?”

    Laird said that India would be best off purchasing the already-developed fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-35 – but that the United States government had not given permission for such a sale, even though Indian officials had asked several times to be able to consider the plane.

    “If they get a chance to really look at the F35, they would want it," Laird said. "The Indians have requested 3 times to talk to people about the F-35B, which is the true revolutionary aircraft -- and the administration never answered the mail, they've blown them off, it's typical of the Obama administration. We love our allies except if you want anything.”

    He added that India may in fact not be at the level where it should be trusted with F-35s, however, so the administration would be right to turn them down. But he argued that the F-35 is ahead of what Russia has.

    “The Russians are good aircraft designers, and they know how to build an agile aircraft, and [the new plane they are working on] is a step forward the path of more agility and flexibility, but the problem is -- it's not all about the frame, it's about what your put in it. The F35 can see around itself, 360 degrees, can see a missile take off 820 miles away, it has a radar that's extraordinary, and the systems are integrated. The Russians I think are nowhere near that at this point.”

    Laird admitted that there was a kind of “ho-hum” aspect to those types of features, but said that the information they provide to pilots and commanders would pay off in a combat situation.

    Cordesman also said that he was unsurprised by the Indian complaints, given what he knew about Russian air capabilities.

    “They’re very good at building airplanes,” Cordesman said. “The problem that Russia, since the collapse of the former Soviet Union, has been putting out the military equivalent of show cars. They look good, but it isn’t always clear how practical they are and how many of the specifications they can actually meet.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...sappointed-with-stealth-fighters-from-moscow/
     
  2. Vyom

    Vyom Captain IDF NewBie

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    Ah, chest thumping by FoxNews. His masters voice.
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Question isn't who is the article by, but if its true or not, about the only thing the the article left out is because of price increases and the rupee declining 25 percent in two years the cost of the PAK FA has doubled and Indian still does not have an airplane.
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The Fastest Hunk of Junk in the Indian Subcontinent

    Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.


    This shouldn't surprise anyone who's paid much attention to Russian (nee Soviet) aircraft development over the last 50 or 60 years -- or longer.

    The Russians have focused on three things in their fighters: Maneuverability and simple construction for building lots and lots of aircraft. Those three things have about as much relevance to fifth-generation fighter systems (they're systems now, not planes) as a white tie and tails have to gearing up for the Superbowl.

    The old Russian system worked fine for the Cold War, when they prepared for a short and nasty air-land battle for Germany. The idea was to send up oodles of fast, maneuverable aircraft into West Germany's tiny airspace, and overwhelm NATO with in the inevitable furballs. And judging by some fine performances of Russian aircraft against us in Korea and Vietnam, it might even have worked. Certainly it was custom-tailored to Russia's manufacturing strengths. Russian jet engines are built to last for only 2,500 flying hours, maybe 4,000 with a rebuild along the way. Western engines last thousands of hours longer.

    The American response to that was to develop stealthy, networked aircraft in very few numbers but with (hopefully) very long lives. A couple of F-22 Raptors can destroy (nearly) as many enemy aircraft as the Raptors have missiles before the enemy even knows there are other jets in the sky. This plays to America's manufacturing strengths in spending oodles of money of difficult to make (and even more difficult to maintain) exotic aircraft.

    Judging by the results during exercises over Nevada, the American way works scarily well.

    Russia of course still has a defense industry they need to keep intact, and lots of airspace to defend. They've seen what works, so now they're trying to adapt to the American way.

    It's a difficult transition, if Russia is capable of managing it at all. One indication might be that Russia has yet to fully develop and deploy a completely new fighter airframe since before the end of the Cold War. They've built a few stealthy PAK-FA planes for testing and evaluation, but they aren't expected to perform as well (or be as stealthy) as our Raptors, or even as our F-35 Lightning II.

    All their other "new" models since then have been variations and upgrades to MiG-29 and Su-27, which were originally developed to counter early models of our F-15 and F-16. The Russians have done some good work with some highly-maneuverable planes, but in the Fifth Generation, that's the billion-dollar version of bringing a knife to a gun fight.
     
  5. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Fossil news.....:sarcastic:
     
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The questions is it accurate?
     
  7. Flyboy!

    Flyboy! Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  8. sam2012

    sam2012 Captain FULL MEMBER

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  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I know enough about the people in that military and the air force that they would have put a stop to the F35 if it was not the best.
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    JPO Statement on F-35 SAR 2015
    F-35 Joint Program Office // March 24, 2016


    [​IMG]


    Quote Attributable to Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, F-35 Program Executive Officer

    “The Fiscal Year 2015 Selected Acquisition Report (SAR 2015) for the F-35 program demonstrates the continued improvement of the program’s total affordability and reflects increasing confidence by the US Services in the program. Compared to last year’s SAR the program’s Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation (RDT&E) costs have remained steady other than a transfer of funds from the procurement account. There has also been a reduction of $7.5B in base year 2012 dollars to the program’s total procurement costs and annual Operating and Support (O&S) costs and cost per flying hour have been reduced between 2 to 4 percent for all variants. The Services have also added 1.6 million flight hours and six additional years to the program overall, extending the operational life of the F-35 from 2064 to 2070, reflecting confidence in the F-35 weapons system.

    The 2015 F-35 SAR shows an increase in Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation (RDT&E) costs of approximately $300M (BY12$). Real RDT&E costs did not go up; the Joint Program Office (JPO) transferred funds from the procurement account to the RDT&E account in order to better align funding for modifications to Operational Test aircraft at the recommendation of our Service comptrollers. This had zero net impact on program costs since there was a commensurate decrease in the procurement funds captured in SAR 2015.

    The estimate for procuring F-35 aircraft over the life of the program for the US Services decreased by $7.5B (BY12$). This is consistent with the continuing trend of price reductions lot over lot and reflects continued cost reductions due to increasing quantities (economies of scale) and improving manufacturing costs. Compared to the 2014 SAR, the cost of an F-35A dropped $1.8 million per jet and the F-35B and F-35C by about $1 million per jet.

    Both the US Air Force and the Department of the Navy steady state annual O&S costs have been reduced by 2-4% from last year’s estimate. These O&S reductions were the result of improved maintainability and sustainability as the weapon system matures, the design stabilizes, and maintenance of the aircraft becomes more efficient and effective. However, these O&S cost reductions were overshadowed by the US Services' changes to aircraft life expectancy and beddown assumptions which added about $45B to the 2015 estimate. Without the additional 1.6 million hours and six years of operations, F-35 life cycle O&S costs would have decreased by about $22B from last year's estimate.

    The F-35 is now a 60-year program, with production through 2038 and operations through 2070. Although there is a tendency to focus on the large projections six decades from now, many of the assumptions used to estimate costs that far into the future are beyond the JPO’s control. The JPO is focused on reducing real, near term costs through many affordability initiatives that will have lasting impacts. There is still much work to do, but the F-35 Joint Program Office continues to make significant progress in reducing the cost of designing, buying, fielding, operating, and sustaining F-35s for the warfighter.”

    See the joint written remarks of F-35 program chief Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan and Navy acquisition chief Sean Stackley.
     
  11. sam2012

    sam2012 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Ok same thing holds good for Sukhoi HAL - FGFA it would be best for IAF and IN you need not worry

    better worry about turkey
     
  12. sam2012

    sam2012 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Let the turkey fight it out S-400 in Syria and come out in flying colours :biggthumpup:
     

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