Saab Gripen : News And Discussions

Discussion in 'U.S. & Europe' started by Picard, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. BMD
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    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Americas - Brazil buys Saab fighter, shooting down French hopes - France 24

    Swedish aerospace maker Saab beat competition from France's Dassault and US aviation giant Boeing to win a $5 billion contract to equip the Brazilian air force with 36 new fighter jets (pictured), the Brazilian defence minister announced Wednesday.

    The Gripen is said to be cheaper than either Dassault’s Rafale or Boeing's F/A-18.


    This made me laugh:

    " The air force is to retire its 12 Mirage jets in late December.

    Brazil bought the refurbished Mirage 2000 C/Bs from France in 2005 for $80 million to fly for five years."
     
  2. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    So they have flyed 9 years 2005-2014 for Brazil after their service to France. Something impossible with Typhoon limited to 2000 h.
     
  3. BMD
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    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Presumably they signed in 2005 and got them in 2009. A ridiculous price to pay for 5 years, for a typical 15 years that works out to $240m per aircraft. You could buy at least two of any new aircraft available for that price.

    Looks like they turned down La Rafale though. Obviously they saw straight through the SPECTRA scam.
     
  4. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    It seems that to get export control-related authorisation is longer than to negociate the contract! Perhaps waiting for US authorisation?

    Saab Gripen : News and Discussions | Page 26 | Indian Defence Forum
     
  5. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    No the potential at the moment of the sale was 5 years but it was extended.
    80 Millions was for 12 Mirage 2000.
     
  6. BMD
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    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    That's not quite as bad I guess, but still a high price for scrap metal.
     
  7. BMD
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    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Gripen seems a bit underpowered:

    http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents and Images/Air/Gripen/Technical brochure, Gripen NG, English.Another forum

    Empty Weight - 8,000kg (17,600lb)
    Internal Fuel - 3,400kg (7,500lb)
    Loaded Weight - 11,400kg (25,100lb)
    Thrust - 98kN (22,000lb)
    TWR - 0.876
    TWR 50% fuel - 1.03
    TWR (100% fuel + 6 Meteors) - 0.8
    TWR (50% fuel + 6 Meteors) - 0.926
    Fuel Fraction - 0.299

    F-35B - Targeting pod and internal weapons bays included
    Empty Weight - 32,300lb
    Internal Fuel - 13,500lb
    Loaded Weight - 45,800lb
    Thrust - 43,000lb
    TWR - 0.94
    TWR 50% fuel - 1.10
    TWR (100% fuel + 6 Meteors) - 0.892
    TWR (50% fuel + 6 Meteors) - 1.04
    Fuel Fraction - 0.295
     
  8. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    No it's not because you have to take care of lift also, and Gripen have Close coupled canards which give it more lift and augment it's agility.
     
  9. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Vstol said an aircraft with CC canards requires 25% less thrust to get the same kind of performance as an aircraft without CC canards.
     
  10. BMD
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    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The wing loading at the new weight is crap too though - 77.7lb/ft^2. 25,100lb/323ft^2.

    I can't see what all the fuss is about it. With no stealth, a <30% fuel fraction, 0.876:1 TWR, and 77.7lb/ft^2 wing loading it's suitable for ghetto air forces only.

    Why is this even better than an F-16 with up-to-date avionics again? CC ain't going to make up for that kind of crappy thrust, especially when you start adding external stores on it. I was led to believe this plane's TWR would come out at ~1.2 and with a similar 58lb/ft^2 wing loading to the Gripen E. This plane has failed more spectacularly than anything. It lacks 5th gen stealth and has 3rd gen performance stats.
     
  11. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    CCC
     
  12. BMD
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    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    CCC can't make up for that kind of TWR difference, especially with the wing loading now massively deteriorated. Kinematically this plane is way down on even a Rafale, nevermind a Typhoon. Fast BVR manoeuvring will be asthmatic. Brazil must be really poor to want this dog.

    What's worse is that it's not even out until next decade, so it's at least 2 decades behind the progress curve and several points low. It's a 21st century MiG-21!

    Saab can draw as many pretty graphs as it likes but the following is true:

    TWR - Very Bad.
    Wing loading - Bad.
    Fuel fraction - Bad (especially for a non-carrier, non-STOVL aircraft).
    Stealth - No.

    A loaded Typhoon only weighs 36% more, has a fuel fraction 3% higher, a 20% lower wing loading and more dry thrust even running with one engine down.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
  13. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    To be able to carry a big load is a quality.
    Gripen empty : 6990 kg ; MTOW : 16500kg can carry 9510kg (pilot, weapons fuel...)
    Typhoon empty :11000kg ; MTOW : 21000kg can carry 10 000 kg (pilot, weapons fuel...)
    Typhoon can carry only 490 kg more than Gripen! If you compare Empty figures Typhoon is 57% heavier than Gripen.
    If you load Gripen with something proportional to its empty weight all the parameters increase dramatically.
     
  14. sunny6611
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    sunny6611 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    THE Typhoon has max life limited to 2000 hr ??????

    so that means in Indian terms..... 25 years of service at least ....... so only 7 hr. per month per a/c .... i think thats tooooooo low.
    IAF is using every a/c far more than that.
     
  15. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    It's due of a default in the Aft structure of the fuselage, an enquiry is running, for the moment German Austrian and British Typhoon are limited at 1500h and the production is stopped. The production will likely resume with a corrected Aft and they will certainly retrofit some planes (not the tranche 1 due to early retirement).
     

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