Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

Safran Offers to Co-Develop Combat Aircraft Engine with DRDO

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Industry' started by Agent_47, May 17, 2017.

  1. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    309
    Country Flag:
    India
    Or they want to remove the Kabini Core with thee M88 eco core, and developed the upgraded M88 engine, at the cost of Indian Money for the future upgradation for Rafale. However I think it is much more complex behind the scene -- including DRDO's Ghatak/Aura project in which m88 would be the secondary backup powerplant, if Kaveri fails, and AMCA development -- In which DRDO would need Dassault, Safron and Thales on which ADA/DRDO is counting at the moment. Something fishy is going on at the moment, which I feels is also due to the facts that, why GE F404IN20 follow on order is not put, which should be put long time ago, giving the fact the turbofan engine is not readymade items available, and my guess is it will take 2 years for GE to produce after recieving Purchase Order.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  2. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    309
    Country Flag:
    India
    Relax, how about a JV engine with all IPR.
     
  3. Butter Chicken

    Butter Chicken Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    727
    Country Flag:
    India
    No country will provide India with all IPR for a jet engine.It has come through decades of research and billions of dollars of investments.We have invested not even 500 Mln USD for Kaveri
     
    Agent_47 and zebra7 like this.
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    12,168
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Country Flag:
    India
    If you read the statement carefully, you will understand that France is basically asking us to fund the further development of M88 under the offsets clause. This is CHEATING. The offer was to upgrade Kaveri and not M88.
     
    Agent_47 and Luttapi like this.
  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    12,168
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Country Flag:
    India
    What was the agreement regarding offsets? was it for a JV? Do you know how a JV works and who holds IPR in such a case?
     
  6. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    309
    Country Flag:
    India
    Yes, but they could form a company JV such as Brahmos Aerospace between GTRE and Safran, which will have all the IPRs of the technology produced during the development of the Engine, and they will choose the subcomponents from various suppliers and groups. In case of India, the engine production could be done by the GTRE.

    No country don't gives technology, rather its the OEMs that shares the technology, because its not the france which makes m88 rather the OEM. Advantage for the France could be the upgraded engine for the future midlife upgrade for the Rafale/Nueron. Partnership in the AMCA/Ghatak Project, and if the strategic deal is concerned than nuclear power SSN, nuclear reactor deal. Stake is too high.
     
  7. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    309
    Country Flag:
    India
    A company formed in the collaboration with the GTRE and Safron just like Brahmos Aerospace or Euro Jet turbo Gmbh
     
  8. Butter Chicken

    Butter Chicken Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    727
    Country Flag:
    India
    We do not hold full IPR for Brahmos.The engine itself is supplied by Russia.40% of the components are imported from Russia,60% from India.Agreement of both is required for export and upgrades.Russia wanted similar deal for FGFA but we have not relented and asked for full IPR and export rights
     
    vstol jockey likes this.
  9. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    12,168
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Country Flag:
    India
    That will allow these companies to hike the price of engine at will, take away profits from India, ensure that some very critical components are manufactured in their respective country, hold us to ransom whenever we disagree with them, deny us critical tech which we can use in any future development of any engine and finally, we will end up being a loser.
     
    Shekhar Singh and Butter Chicken like this.
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    12,168
    Likes Received:
    11,838
    Country Flag:
    India
    correct it to read, "We have not relented".
     
  11. Luttapi

    Luttapi FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 2, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    12
    Country Flag:
    India
    SNEGMA just got a back door entry to LCA program with blessings of some. The objective was to sell engine to India from the beginning. Some even in airforce had objected the joint venture at that time.
     
    vstol jockey likes this.
  12. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    2,498
    Country Flag:
    India
    Engine tech and missile tech are different ends of spectrum. Engine tech is closely guarded and not easy to replicate unlike missiles. Even for Brahmos all major components are still Russian.
     
  13. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    309
    Country Flag:
    India
    Tell me which country give Missile tech. openly. What you are missing is that if India have to give order, than the order will be to the Brahmos Aerospace, and this company had contract with the Godrej Aerospace for the production of the missile. And if Russia needs Brahmos, then they will order Brahmos Aerospace, and it will on the Brahmos Aerospace where they want to get them manufactured. Advantage you save the foriegn reserve, and the profit share is also distributed, plus to get more order, this company will invest in the R&D automatically to get more orders, as seen in case of hypersonic version and Brahmos-mini. The pvt players and supplier will automatically start emerging. Real advantage would be that you have to choose the product, rather ask them to develop certain product and again mess with the deals and negotiation web with the Russia.
     
  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    2,498
    Country Flag:
    India
    Dude, even Pakistan makes many types of missiles. How does it matter how the tech is shared ? It's easy to replicate compared to engine tech.

    Russia still holds 50% of Brahmos aerospace and all major components still comes from Russia.
     
  15. zebra7

    zebra7 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    309
    Country Flag:
    India
    I said the JV to form a company, thus you are ordering the engine as per your requirement, and the company will have the option to decide where it would get manufactured, and since we have cheaper labour cost, this contract should be given to some indian firm, whether pvt or psu. Why would they would like to kill their order and profit, when you HAL will make the deal to supply certain number of engine. Think do you ever think, that if you made the legal deal with the Eurojet for 100 engine will deny you after supplying after 20 for the LSA. The profit earned would be distributed.

    What you are missing is that in this process, you would be setting a whole environment of supplier and manufacturer. Say if it would have existed, then didn't you first approach this JV first for the LSA powerplant.
     

Share This Page