Scorpene Submarines - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by flanker143, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    First the investigation is probably not at a end.
    Second if a near ally is involved, all will be done under the cap.

    I think it will be interesting to read the economic and diplomatic moves between india, france, USA, germany, GB, russia... in the next coming weeks and months to read between the lines.
     
  2. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    LOL, with these comments from you, would I really care what you think? I try not to get into personal arguements with people specially who I think have knowledge, I do have to give a rethink about you. But as I said, I dont really care what you think abt me. I am not your friend nor relative..

    Now. all that "non sensitive marketing data" that people here are talking about and which as many said is freely available in public domain, DCNS is going to file injunction against THE AUSTRALIAN. Well if this info was "non sensitive" and "marketing information" as many members assured, why is the need for DCNS to file for injunction.
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/dcns-to-move-court-to-stop-data-release/article9043129.ece
    Phata gayi hai DCNS aur France and also Rafale fan boys ki ....
     
  3. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    And it's not new. During Clinton administration the watchword was to "kill the Rafale". They succeed in Morocco (mainly a french failure), in Korea, in NL, maybe in Brazil.
     
  4. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    2009 ? It seems you lost track of years.. we are in 2016 .. 2009 went 7 years ago..
    As per the current situation of India, the only party that can have power with full majority is BJP, other parties have weak organisations. Only a coalition can bring them to power, and most coalitions members are weak except say SP, and RJD.. other coalition members are not even in power.
     
  5. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Was it official or just the french hype?
     
  6. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    And yet DCNS wants to file injuction to stop the leak of this "presentation"
    Like I said, this is just the tip of the icebeg... try not to comment on something fully known yet.
    Let us give it some time for it to develop and see what was leaked,.. maybe DCNS knows whats leaked so its filing for injunctions. At least they are not stupid to file for an injunction for something like you decribe it.
    Actually with this comment you do sound very much like Kejri "alls fine in DCNS" type of comment.
     
  7. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    That was just a sample, what we call an "appetiser" to get the attention of the right people.
     
  8. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...ta-leak-manohar-parrikar-indian-navy-3001106/

    Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75
    Sushant Singh spoke to experts and submarine veterans to look at the impact of each of the 10 kinds of data breaches that The Australian newspaper reported last week.

    To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month. This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked.

    The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way.

    Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020.

    Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.”

    But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy?

    According to Commodore A Jai Singh, a retired submariner who was associated with Project-75 preparations at Navy Headquarters at the turn of the century, “the only thing, which if leaked out from the supplier, that can really compromise the operation of our submarines is the source code of the Fire Control System. It is a top secret thing which the DCNS doesn’t even share with the company providing the weapons. The Australian hasn’t claimed that it is in the possession of the software code, and besides that, everything else is not really going to matter.”

    He added, “Just the generic technical specifications are little indication of a submarine’s operational capability. The element of stealth and superiority is how a navy operates its submarines with the equipment on board and therein lie the vital elements of secrecy essential for submarine operations.”

    Three top Navy sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the documents put out so far are not the same as the ones with the Navy. These are dated versions from a period well before the signing of the contract with DCNS in 2005. Navy officials assert that “we are no longer a buyer’s Navy but a builder’s Navy. Only six navies have successfully built ballistic missile submarines, including India. There is no need to be overly concerned as we have the capability of tweaking the design, and the weapon and sensor deployment capability to mitigate any risk from information being compromised.”

    The Australian has reported being in possession of 10 types of secret information which compromises the Indian programme. The Indian Express went over each of them with experts to figure out what they mean, and how they could affect the Navy.

    Stealth capabilities

    Stealth capabilities pertain mainly to the acoustic signature of a submarine, and is a function of many things, including the submarine’s self-noise levels, the propeller configuration, the speed regimes underwater, the noise generated by on-board machinery, and the acoustic damping techniques used both on the hull and within the submarine. The harmonics produced by no two submarines are the same. These spot frequencies, unlike the range given in the documents, are recorded by special equipment after a submarine goes for sea-trials, and kept in the Ship Data Book, a top secret document kept with the captain of the submarine. This data is re-recorded after every major refit, as the harmonics change. In the case of a European design like the Scorpene, there would not be much to choose between contemporary designs of a relatively similar size which would operate in the same frequency ranges.

    Frequencies at which submarines gain intelligence

    Most modern submarine Electronic Search Measures (ESM) systems operate in a frequency range of 0.2 to 40 GHz, so to learn that Scorpenes operate in a similar frequency band is no compromise. Similarly, submarines are fitted with navigational radars with commercial applications, which operate in a particular frequency range worldwide. A modern submarine rarely, if ever, transmits at sea either from its radars or its sonars, or even its communication sets. A Naval officer who commanded a submarine for six years said that he used an active sonar only thrice in his tenure, that too only to test the equipment and validate the training of his staff.

    Noise levels submarines could reach at certain speeds

    Noise levels are a function of the submarine speed and the speed of rotation of a propeller, which is recorded during sea trials and noted in the Ship Data Book. The data put out is the NSQR limits given by the Navy to the designers that it should not exceed so many decibels at various speeds.

    Diving depths, range and endurance

    Range and endurance of all submarines are in the open domain. While specific depths may not be listed in the open specifications, most submarines the world over operate in a more or less similar depth envelope. Endurance of any submarine is dependent on its maximum patrol period, which determines the quantity of fuel carried. It varies between 50 and 60 days in the case of India’s submarines.

    Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data

    Every submarine is demagnetised after construction and undergoes trials at the underwater ranges at Goa. The data for even the first submarine has not been recorded so far. This data is updated even if a submarine has stayed in a dry dock for a prolonged period. Rarely has a submarine been detected by an MRASW aircraft fitted with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Since submarines do not transmit, they are not vulnerable to detection in the e-m spectrum.

    Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system

    The Navy has not selected the torpedo for the six submarines after the contract for Black Shark torpedoes from the Italian company WASS was cancelled following the VVIP helicopter controversy. Based on the choice of weapons and sensors on board, and the operating philosophy, the combat system would be programmed by the Navy, so there would be very little to be gained from the basic characteristics of the system. The secrecy lies in their programming by the Navy.

    Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope

    Modern submarines rarely plane to periscope depth except for the minimum time required to charge their batteries. This duration is also a function of the submarine’s mission profile, as well as the tactical exploitation of the platform in the prevailing operational scenario. Knowing the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope actually discloses little or no information about what the submarine is doing or intends to do.

    Propeller’s noise specifications

    Each propeller generates its own harmonics of noise which is determined after extensive trials, while the data put out is the generic NSQR data. Even a minor chip of 2-3 mm completely changes propeller noise. The propeller generates different noise at different speeds at varying depths and varying hydrological conditions. The submarine is equipped with cavitation meters, to assess the noise level and accordingly vary its speed or depth to find the most suitable depth and speed profile to operate at.

    Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces

    A submarine is unlikely to surface in an operational deployment, and will do so if required, only in friendly waters. In an emergency, if a submarine has no choice but to surface, its visual presence will be easier to detect than its acoustic signature.

    Weapons data

    Weapons used in peacetime during training and during war operate on totally different frequencies. The war-shots are launched on frequency hopping mechanism, unlike peacetime firing. A veteran submariner gave the example of the only test war-shot fired by him in 2003 off the coast of Mumbai which could not be recorded by any of the half a dozen Indian ships monitoring the firing, despite knowing the exact timing and the location of the target. Moreover, the Pakistan Navy is also in possession of the same Exocet missile which these Scorpenes will use.
     
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  9. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Nice article,

    All this on basis of few pages that were leaked, did DCNS confirm that the leaked data is not important?
    At least the urgency with which they are trying to get injuction shows otherwise
    Damage is done at least to DCNS ...

    The Experts and vetrans are right, there is no need to panic,, as yet, because we are not sure what all data was leaked,... but surely it was not training or marketing data.

     
  10. Ved Mishra
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    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Right time to leverage this opportunity to milk the French for F21, Barracuda tech for our SSNs etc.
    France will need to "compensate" in some or the other way. Its a blessing in disguise for India.
     
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  11. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    I fully agree with you. The leak is insignificant but we can use it to ask for more discounts. Pls refer to what I wrote a few days back. Sub is very difficult to detect at sea and there are only two ways we can find a sub, either we know its operational area or it comes to us to strike us. I have been involved in many anti-sub exercises on INS Gomati in 1990-91 and I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to find a sub at sea unless she is there to attack you. It also needs to come to same depth where it can hear a ship as the depth at which ships sonars can hear her out. But a sub can remain completely passive and yet launch an attack using its sensors only to rise to the readable layer by using its periscope based sensors.
    Just the way ships have sonar bodies which can be streamed behind and towed to be free from own acoustic signature, subs also have such towed sonars which can vary the depth allowing them to stay below the sound propagation depth where they can be detected. Akula class has such a sonar and that sub is the most feared sub in western world. Have you seen that thing on top of its rudder which looks like the helmet of a cyclist?
     
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  12. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    After everything is said and done, this leak will only have served to make Indian-French ties stronger and better.
     
  13. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Most members of the forum don't even know what all is at stake but hey are blinded by Rafale deal. France has done a deal with other nations for the same aircraft. They can't lower the price for us based on their future sales prospects? Indian price will become a bench mark for future sales. What French are doing is what a roadside vegetable seller does in India. Onions will cost you INR 50/kg but I am willing to give you dhania, pudina and mutthibhar green chillies for free. 100% Indian men and women opt for such a deal.
     
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  14. TickTickIndian
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    TickTickIndian BANNED BANNED

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    I have a doubt about the F-35 program, about its over investment. What if it didn't actually take that much to make it, and money is being diverted to some black project. I think they made more of these aircrafts and is parking them in secret underground bases like Denver Airport which has huge underground facilities, etc.

    In WWII, America surprised the world with nukes. They are only feigning stupidity with F-35. I think we have to assume that the extra spend on the F-35 project is being used elsewhere.
     
  15. Ved Mishra
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    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This issue also demands a revisit to the freedom of press particularly related with military secrets of friendly nations. "Aise dost honge to dushmano ki zarurat hi kya hai". I think DCNS should drag The Australian and make it pay dearly along with other middle men. That will deter other crocs in the pond. I mean had it been US instead of India, would they have dared?
     

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