Scorpene Submarines - Updates & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by flanker143, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. PARIKRAMA
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    PARIKRAMA Fire Breathing Dragon Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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  2. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    I did my watch keeping on INS Gomati in 190-91 as Lt. I was an Aviator so I went for my watch keeping certificate after I got fully qualified as an Aviator. In IN this is normally done when you are a Sub Lt. My action station was ECP-Emergency conning position. Its a position well hidden from damage by any kind of weapon used against the ship and will allow control of ship even in case of extreme war damage and death of all available officers of the ship senior to the person manning ECP. My normal station was ORO-Operations room officer of the ship.
    In 1990 Dec, we had a simulated firing by INS shankul on us using her wire guided torpedo. I was OOW-officer of the watch at that time. I picked up the wake of the torpedo as it came to the depth of 6ft after being launched to maintain that depth. I did not have the sub in contact on my sonars. The CO of the ship was acting as ORO and was below water line in the Operations room on his elevated chair. During actual hostility, the OOW is seconded to ORO in IN. Operations room is our nerve centre and all weapon systems are integrated on those big screens with computer aided action information system also using part AI to give solutions to the multiple threats being faced by the ship/formation with weapon arcs being displayed to suggest best course of action.
    I read about AI about F-35 and I laughed my heart out. This so called AI was put into our systems in IN way back in 1999 by IIT, Chennai. You guys might remember the episode in which the CO of an Indian warship refused to show his OR to a Chinese Admiral in China. As of 2010, we had not allowed any foreign power to see the operations room of our frontline ships.
    AND trust me, with so much of automation and best sensors, we were not able to detect our own subs for which we had 100% data with us including top secret as the acoustic signature of these subs is fed in our systems already to ensure that we don't attack one of our own. It is same as the threat library which we have on board a fighter aircraft about enemy EM transmissions.
     
  3. Ved Mishra
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    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Very interesting indeed. If our own frigate is unable to detect our submarine, May God help the adversaries. Do keep posting such stories.
     
  4. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You might be implying that French in some of the tech are not as sophisticated as brightest minds of IIT. and this is few decades ago ..
     
  5. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Ships have no problem of space when compared to a fighter aircraft. What we have in our ships today, we will take another decade to put them in our aircraft as we need to reduce the size of those sensors. So in way YES and also NO to your suggestion.
     
  6. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Depends how one sees the story

    http://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/scorpene-data-leak-not-a-big-worry-parrikar/950663

    Scorpene Data Leak Not a Big Worry: Parrikar
    New Delhi
    [​IMG]

    As a debate raged over sensitivity of leaked Scorpene data, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today played down the leak, saying it is "not a big worry" as weapon system details were not included, a remark challenged by the publisher who asserted these will be made public on Monday.

    However, the Minister while noting that he is speaking on the basis of Navy's briefing to him, said there are "few pockets of concerns" because the ministry is assuming the worst case scenario.

    He also made it clear that the leak of documents on Scorpene submarines will not have any impact on any deal being worked out with the French including the Rafale fighter jet contract.

    The Defence Minister said that the leaked documents put on the web of 'The Australian' newspaper does not include details of any of the weaponry systems of the Scorpene as has been reported in the media.

    Parrikar said that the Navy has assured him that most of the leaked documents are not of concern.

    "Weapon system agreements are with weapon manufacturers and they are separate agreements. Secondly, all submarines have so far not done the sea trials. Therefore the most important signature (movement of the submarine) does not form part of the documents.

    "The most important aspect is that we do our integration through our technical capability," he said.

    Hours later, Cameron Stewart, the journalist who broke the story regarding the leak of 22,000 pages of "restricted" data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai under licence from DCNS, said those also have been leaked.

    "India's defence minister says leaked data on Scorpene Submarines does not include weapons systems. Wrong. We will release weapons docs Monday," he tweeted.


    "When I say we will release a leaked document on Scorpene weapons systems, they will of course be redacted by us of sensitive information."

    The remarks by the Minister came even as Defence Ministry sources played down the leak saying it does not compromise national security as the documents were old and did not contain details of weapon system.

    The minister also said that Scorpene submarine has not even fully completed the sea trials, which is important to understand how it will work under water.

    The Indian Navy has taken up Scorpene document leak matter with French Directorate General of Armament.

    "We are waiting for the report. Basically, what is on the website is not of big concern. We are assuming, on our own, that this has leaked and we are taking all precautions", he told reporters on the sidelines of a seminar organised by defence website bharatshakti.In

    "What I am given to understand is that there are few pockets of concern assuming that what is claimed to have been leaked has leaked actually.

    "We are going by assumption of the worst case scenario. I think there is not big worry because we will be able out put things in right perspective", Parrikar added.

    Asked by a journalist whether the Rafale deal would be affected because of the leak, the minister, who was puzzled by the query, shot back questioning whether one can stop using French products just because a leak has happened in another company.

    "You stop using all products from France? Obviously, the companies are different, the type of equipment is different and an incident should be punished with whatever the contractual punishment is there. It is not intentionally leaked," Parrikar said.

    While media reports from France have said that the documents were "stolen" by a former DCNS employee, India has not received anything in writing.

    More than 22,000 pages of top secret data on the capabilities of six highly advanced submarines being built for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in collaboration with a French company have been leaked, ringing alarm bells in the security establishment.

    The combat capability of the Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon dock at a cost of over USD 3.5 billion under licence from French firm went public when the Australian newspaper put the details on the website.

    Asked whether the Ministry has got in touch with the newspaper for the set of documents, he said, "Why should I? I am assuming that everything has leaked."

    When asked if the DCNS should have informed India about the leak which is said to have happened in 2011, Parrikar said the government will wait for an official reply from the firm.


    "One aspect is security which is a top priority for us. We have a team in place. They are going into the details assuming that the leak has taken place.


    "The second aspect is the contractual obligation and proper information. That we have asked and are waiting for a reply from them. Let the reply come," he said.


    Asked how concerned or how alarmed was he, the minister said, "If you ask me, I have always expressed my concern until a solution has been found. But the navy has assured me that most of the concerns, like I told you for example, the arms... we have different contract as far as arms and ammunition are concerned.

    "In 2011 and 2014 we have developed our own document, with the help of which we have... Whereas there are many modifications which have been done," he said.

    Parrikar stressed that India does its own integration.

    "So all these aspects makes lot of concerns in much lower potential or category. They (navy) have assured me that probably they we will be able to address most of concerns," he said.
     
  7. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    I think it will be OK.
    There is too much in the balance not to give you some compensation.
     
  8. Ved Mishra
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    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Explain. As if the pressure of Rafale deal was not enough. This incident is not just about leak of sensitive proprietary data but a hit on the very reputation of DCNS. Saying sorry will just not do and that's exactly what leads to some delicacies in terms of compensation. You broke the secrecy and confidentiality you need to pay (compensate) for it. Ofcourse it will never be declared but trust me on this.
     
  9. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    It's not a leak. It's a steal. In every company there are men. And a man can be corrupted or deviant....
     
  10. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    And that is your arguument against the leak?? One of the most pathetic defence In a way you do show how helpless France and DCNS are ..

    In every company there are men, but who to select and what responsibilities to give them is the responsibility of the company.. else what is stopping billion dollars worth DCNS going to the dogs.
     
  11. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    :blah::blah::blah:
     
  12. jonas
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    jonas Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    No I don't I am agnostic, idiot.
     
  13. positron
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    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You better write all sort of reasons that you can think of to use when Rafale is rejected ... again.
    you can indeed start with Blah Blah ....
     
  14. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    At the end I will be the one who will laugh.
     
  15. halloweene
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    halloweene Major STRATEGIST

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    Could be worse : we could have been incompetent enough to build Astute class program...
     

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