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Should India follow Russian proposed Submarine Acquisition Blue Print?

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by layman, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    India’s Submarine Acquisition plans have been facing several years of delays leading to an ageing fleet of submarines which needs urgent replacement to get India’s Submarine fleet back on track. Project-75I after years of delays seems to be a non-starter for various reasons and recent data leak of Six Scorpene submarine under development under Project-75 also has come as a severe blow to Indian Navy’s Submarine programme.

    Good Friend, Russia which is keen on participating in India’s Project-75I, to supply Six Conventional Submarines with Air-independent propulsion (AIP) after touring Indian Private shipyards had peace of advice to Indian Government on how plans to “Make In India ” Submarines under Project-75I tender will not be able to fast track submarine requirement of India.

    Russia officials had informed Indian government that many of the Public and Private sector shipyards in India simply don’t have expertise, infrastructure and manpower to absorb Transfer of Technology to construct submarines in India.

    Citing issues faced by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited in absorbing Scorpene submarine Transfer of Technology even after been the only shipyard in India with experience in development of submarines, other shipyards relatively with no experience will have to go through same issues and delays before they can absorb Transfer of Technology to construct submarines under Project-75I tender.

    Russia’s word of advice to India was that due to lack of expertise and experience of submarine constructions, any winning bidder should construct two submarines in its own shipyard but also train Indian workers in shipyards to gain work on hands experience so that it can be replicated back in selected shipyards back home in India.

    Russian officials had cautioned India that going for all out 6 Submarine construction plans in India will lead to serious delays for sure which will result into to serious vacuum in Indian Navy’s Submarine fleet.

    Indian Navy to had made similar suggestions to the government that construction of all Six submarines will lead to serious delays and had made suggestion to go for follow-on orders for 3 Scorpene submarines and also acquiring 2-3 Russian Kilo Class Submarines in Government to Government deal to help fast track submarine acquisitions.

    Published April 19, 2017
    SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG
     
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  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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  3. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    I had a small tip off about a Russian offer on Kilos and I had conveyed the same to @PARIKRAMA some time back.

    It was 3[in Russia] + 9-11[In India] , under a direct G2G deal. The Sonar and weapons package was to be jointly developed, with BEL and BDL being a important part and the cost of submarine would have been ~350 million USD dollars , excluding other expenses.....

    The offer has been proposed , lets see what's about to happen.
     
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  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That had been rejected too, if I recall.

    The Lada program
     
  5. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    This was made in march this year....
    This time may be our Navy's desperation, the low cost, the electronics and weapons to be under BEL/BDL hands and licencing of Klubs .... these things might just pull off a deal.

    But as you said, Russians keep proposing a lot of things....
     
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  6. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    It is a sensible proposal similar to the proposed format for MMRCA (18 off the shelf+ 108 made in India) and LHD/LPD (2 off the shelf+2-4 made in India).

    That said, as far as P-75I goes the optimal solution is many more Scorpenes, with massive investments made in 2 production lines at MDL it makes little sense to throw away such outlays and stop at just 6-9 units. At least another 6-12 should be ordered, the Russians have made a compeling case for this.
     
  7. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    If the S P model comes in time , then all things will happened as earlier planned.

    If the Russian offer is accepted , it will be a G2G deal outside of P75I , including a private shipyard.
     
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  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The problem is, that we would fall further back on technology with Kilos, even compared to Pak Navy. They already have AIP operational, Malaysia will get Scorpene with AIP, Singapore U218 with AIP, not sure if Australias Baraccudas will have it too, but even China has AIP and is operating around India.
     
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  9. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    If Russian offer is accepted the P75(I) is dead, the IN doesn't have a need to operate 25+ SSKs.

    Anyway, if the Russian offer is accepted the MoD/GoI will prove to have learnt nothing.
     
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  10. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    AIP is not the only thing which matters.

    The sensors , the weapons and the overall range of Kilos is a huge factor.

    The proposed kilo program is like a upgrade program for already improved Kilo Class in production.

    And the things promised , especially its sensor suite and weapons suite and its cost ....

    Further the JV will only be approved if the proposed submarine meets the needs of Indian Navy.
    So if the program is approved, we can be sure that , atleast we are not going back as you say.
     
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  11. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    The offer will only be accepted if the proposed submarine , its cost and the technology gains of BDL/BEL are considered good enough.

    And yes, remember our submarine operations are not to be limited only to two commands, A&N will get its own squadron and so will western fleet for its responsibilities in Mauritius and Seychelles. You see these two nations are very important and are currently pro India.

    So our SSK needs are going to be much bigger than you think.
     
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  12. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    But WNC and Arabian Sea is the only command/AOR that merits SSKs, for the ENC and ANC SSNs are required.

    + if you are talking about out of area deployements (to Seychelles and Mauritius), SSNs are the ONLY option.
     
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  13. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It will be stupidity to go for kilo. Russians failed to develop a better one. What they can offer is far less.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Of course not, but it's the main advantage of modern subs in terms of being less detectable.
    Having AESA radar in a stealth fighter is good as well, but doesn't equal the stealth design right?

    Anything else what Russia offers is not special Imo, because sensors and weapons can be added to any sub, a modern and reliable AIP system however can't and neither DRDO nor Russia have one operational if I'm not wrong.
     
  15. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    These aren't the only things that matter, what about timelines? I can't see such a JV being agreed and production lines set up in India within a decade, this all but negates any cost advantadge such an offer may have.

    Has India not learnt its lessons from the debacles of FGFA, MTA, Ka-226, T-90 etc?
     
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