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Stealth Fighter Showdown: China's New J-20 Vs. Russia's Super T-50 Pak-fa

Discussion in 'Modern Warfare' started by dadeechi, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. dadeechi

    dadeechi Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    China vs. India


    Stealth Fighter Showdown: China's New J-20 vs. Russia's Super T-50 PAK-FA
    [​IMG]
    Dave Majumdar
    November 2, 2016

    China’s J-20 stealth fighter is making headlines around the world--and for obvious reasons.

    While the plane has been seen in various testing phases for some years now, the aircraft just made its official debut at an airshow in China--a symbol of Beijing’s growing military muscle.

    Combined with China’s new aircraft carrier (with a second now nearing completion, the first built in a Chinese shipyard, by the way), various types of advanced antiship weapons, multiple versions of advanced submarines and more, Beijing clearly is on a course (many argue already is) to become one of the world’s most dangerous military powers, alongside Russia and America.

    But how would China’s new stealth jet do in open warfare? Could it really tangle with the world’s best? Here is a question: What about a matchup against Russia’s new 5th generation fighter, the PAK-FA. Last year, TNI’s Defense Editor, Dave Majumdar, explored this question. So who would win? Let the debate begin…

    ***

    Russia and China have recently moved closer together as they collaborate to limit U.S. influence around the globe. However, relations between the two great powers have not always been so cozy.

    Indeed, the People’s Republic of China and the Soviet Union even fought a brief undeclared border war in 1969, shattering the illusion of a monolithic Communist bloc. While China and post-Soviet Russia have recently been drawn together, there is always the possibility that in the future their interests may diverge. In the event of conflict, air power would play a key role.

    So how might Russia’s Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fare against the Chinese Chengdu J-20? That would depend on the type of conflict. Indeed, as I have noted before, while the PAK-FA is definitely an air superiority fighter, it’s not clear that the J-20 is a fighter at all.

    If there was war in Russia’s Far East, where a conflict with China might take place, range will be an important factor. While there is no specific information available about the range performance of either the J-20 or PAK-FA, given the size of the Chinese aircraft, one suspects it has longer legs. It probably also has a much greater payload. Overall, the J-20 could be the more useful machine if it was used as a strike aircraft.

    It’s hard to say what would happen if the two aircraft were to meet head on in an aerial battle. There has never been an instance where two stealth aircraft have met in an air-to-air encounter. Until recently, the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor was the only operational stealth fighter on the planet. Previous aircraft like the F-117 and the B-2 are obviously optimized for air-to-ground attacks.

    If the J-20 and PAK-FA prove to be genuinely stealthy, an aerial engagement might devolve into a within visual range dogfight. That’s assuming the two opposing forces could find each other.

    One might imagine that low frequency radar would be able to direct the groups of jets into the right vicinity. The Russian and Chinese jets might then be able to locate each other more precisely using their infrared search and track capabilities. However, discerning accurate range data from an infrared sensor is problematic—and it’s not clear if the either the Russian or Chinese can derive a weapons quality track from those cameras. Thus neither side would necessarily be able shoot from any great range.

    That means the two opposing forces would be forced into a visual range fight. The J-20, which is powered by engines intended for the Sukhoi Su-27, is at a huge disadvantage. Compared to the PAK-FA, the J-20 is underpowered and wouldn’t have the energy addition to keep up. Moreover, the PAK-FA has three-dimensional thrust vectoring for outstanding low speed handling. That means the Russian aircraft probably has the edge in turn rate, turn radius and high angle of attack performance. But if both sides have high off-boresight missiles and helmet-mounted cueing systems, with a little luck, the J-20 might get a lucky shot—however, the PAK-FA probably still has the edge.

    Ultimately, all this is pure speculation and hopefully will remain that way. A war between Russia and China would not be good for either nation—and could drag in other powers and lead to a wider conflict.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...down-chinas-new-j-20-vs-russias-super-t-18265
     
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  2. Pundrick

    Pundrick Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Looking at the power train Pakfa has advantage over J20, I don't know when will the Chinese will come up with their super cruising engines.

    I terms of stealth J20 does looks like a balanced stealth jet, whereas PakFa was designed for more frontal stealth. And in terms of IR signature, I would say J20 looks like have an edge over PakFa, due to the RAM coating and engine cover, whereas the engine of Pakfa is completely exposed.

    In terms of maneuverability their is no competition of PakFa, J20 is nowhere in close air combat.

    But J20's future looks bright due to huge financial backing from government, which PakFa lacks, if India doesn't bring its $ 4 billion then the project will be affected.

    At the moment, the score will be PAKFA 3-3 J20.
     
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  3. Martian

    Martian Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    In this infographic, I have covered the stealth features present on the top-side of the Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter. Also, I have covered some of the stealth features present on the side of the Chengdu J-20. Later, I will create an infographic to cover the stealth features present on the underside of the Chengdu J-20.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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    If possible please make a sticky thread for J20
     
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  5. Martian

    Martian Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I created infographics to explain the Chengdu J-20's stealth features. (see post #3 above)

    I have now created infographics to explain the reasons that the Russian Pak Fa is not stealthy.

    Firstly, the Russian Pak Fa has exposed metallic engines that are excellent reflectors of radar. Secondly, the Russian Pak Fa does not have serpentine air ducts (S-duct) to hide its turbofan engine blades from radar.

    There are other problems with the Pak Fa that makes it not stealthy. For example, the air vents and uneven Pak Fa underside surface are not stealthy.

    All of the stealth problems that you see on the Russian Pak Fa do not exist on the Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I want Chinese to know that by copying a design which was not stealthy, you can't create an aircraft which is stealthy. J-20 is anything but stealth. Same is true about this farce called FGFA. It is as stealthy as SU-30MKI.
     
  7. Duhastmish

    Duhastmish FULL MEMBER

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    I think he is giving technical reasons. Compared to you.

    It will be fun and informative for us readers if you can give answers in same manner.
     
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  8. NKVD

    NKVD Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Technical His reasons More Of Amatuer Rookie Analysis from Images great What Scientific Reasons

    J-20 Deficiency

    1. Unsubstantiated claims on AESA With 1852 T/r modules though No Scientific Study or Data reveals How NRIET ables Master Package technology in Such Short time Which even Russians & European Struggled to Master With generations of experiance in Aviation .Purchase of IBRIS E was done to reverse engineer It to develop AESA Technology for J 20
    2. Radar Heating Issues And Peak Power generation in AESA Major issues
    3. Use of Radar coatings and RAM paint But unlike F-35 and F-22 is Not Baked in Fibre baked Steen Structure
    4. Under Power Engines Reliability On Russians for Next gen engines Which cause Maintenance issues
    5. Unproven Weapons and Missile Package Less Reliable Seeker technology
    6. Lack or Sensor fusion and Active Cancellation
    7. Unreliable EW Package
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
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  9. Duhastmish

    Duhastmish FULL MEMBER

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    Thanks for reply. I was asking for similar reply brother.
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The very basics of RCS reduction are:-
    • Small size-geometric area exposed to radar is a big factor. J-20 is huge.
    • Shaping-Directivity is another major aspect of stealth. It is about how the radar transmissions strike the aircraft surface and how they are bounced off from the surface in a direction away from the radar. J-20 is bad in that aspect also. Its sides, front and rear do not have the required angle to give it stealth.
    • Reflectivity- You have to use a skin made of such a structure which allows for lesser radar returns. Its same as you bouncing off a ball from a wall and bouncing it off a rubber ball. Which one of them will have more energy for the reflection?
    • Edge Alignment- have a look at J-20 and you will know that its edges are not at all aligned.
    J-20 has internal bays and that reduces its loaded RCS and that is the only stealth it has. But that also is fine as long as we are looking at only I/J-band stealth.
    The way forward is Internal weapons bays with electronic stealth. Rafale has electronic stealth but does not have internal weapon bays.
     
  11. Duhastmish

    Duhastmish FULL MEMBER

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    1. One thing canards: although pakfa has leading edge root extention. Mean they kind of act like canard as they fall diwn n lift up. Chinese have full canards which might increase frontal rcs.
    2. The fan blade i guess they might end up using radar blocker something of the super hornet sorts.
    3. The concept of pak fa is diffrent to rest fighter . They sti believe in agility and seek first destroy first with longer range missile.
     

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