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Stealth fighters vs Eurocanards

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Oct 26, 2012.

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  1. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    At eyeball range it will be detected. Typhoon still has survivability a lot more than the F35

    The differnece is not so far from Typhoon, Rafale or other jets.

    At BVR stealth allows it to do two things Eurofighter can not do


    How close can you get with a bad stealth? I keep repeating it has stealth flaws and saying it depends on the situation.

    Eurofighter expected such threats:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Read number 6. Because if your missile fails its the stealth thats going to be in trouble, especially a F35.

    Plus if typhoon detects the target first with 90 mile range PIRATE or detect a missile threat then whats to say the chances are high of a missile kill?

    STOVL not V/STOL. Still needs a runway for takeoff unlike the Harrier. Also we still need to see what weapons it can use with STOVL being an overweight jet.

    Agreed, we will see.

    So got to test these stealths though in reality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
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  2. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    F-22 is far larger than Typhoon. And this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    At best, F-22 would have comparable IR signature to Typhoon - engine exhaust notwithstanding - if it were same size. But it is far larger aircraft.

    Any modern jammer can do it.

    50-100 km range vs F-22. And BVR missile Pk is positively meager - never above 10% vs comparable opponent, usually between 6 and 8 % - especially without mid-flight update, which can only be provided by platform which launched the missile... so, let's do a little hypothetical scenario:

    You have two air forces which have bought fighter aircraft for 100 billion USD. First has ended up with 400 F-22s, second has ended up with 820 Typhoons. Using respective avaliability rates of 55,5% and either 50%* or 88%**, first one can field 222 F-22s, and second one either 410 or 722 aircraft. Averaging BVR missile Pk at 7%, and with each F-22 carrying 6 missiles, F-22s can shoot down 93 Typhoons BVR. What about remaining 317 - 629 Typhoons? It leaves F-22s outnumbered 1,42:1 to 2,83:1, by aircraft which has shown itself to be a superior dogfighter.

    *Luftwaffe avaliability rate
    **Operation Elamy demonstrated avaliability rate

    And before you say - military does such scenarios all the time. This also assumes that F-22s can actually lock on Typhoons from sufficient distance to allow them to launch all BVR missiles before fight turns WVR, and that Typhoons don't carry air-to-air anti-radiation missiles, which will force F-22 to shut down radar immediately after launch - assuming they even risk BVR engagement in first place.

    LOL.

    You can keep repeating lies if it makes you feel better, but I have already proven that Luftwaffe Typhoons that handed F-22s asses back to them WVR did not have HMS.

    Radar yes, IR only as far as exhaust is concerned:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  3. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @Brainy from what range were these IR images taken? 50kms?

    And you have proven only one thing at every place i.e. Your sheer ignorance and nothing more.
    Everytime when you are asked for proofs about raptor's radar being jammed you come up with Yahoo article which itself doesn't claim anything as such but you go on and reproduce your wet dreams about eurofighter on this forum.
     
  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    It doesn't matter. What it does show is that F-22s IR signature is far higher than Eurocanards'.

    First, you obviously have no clue about either jammers or radars, so stop BSing. Second, I never said that Yahoo article proves anything about jamming. Anyway, F-22s radar is an AESA, no different than any other AESA in the world.

    EDIT:

     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
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  5. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    By Air Forces Monthly, January 2007

    Appropriate measures similar to the stuff I have been posting.
     
  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    You mean post#31 here or something else? If it is else, I'd appreciate link.

    Anyway, as I said: performance+ECM > stealth. Not the least because ECM can be upgraded... stealth can't, or at least not without a lot effort (AKA "rebuilding good portion of aircraft").
     
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  7. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    It is similar to post 31 and post's I have shown in many other threads. What I try to show is that though one believes he has an invisible he is actually only delaying an enemy from finding him. I said that the Typhoon had Active phased arrays, look at these:

    Technical Solution

    http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5236/bachelli12.jpg

    I said on the J20 thread it depends on the situation and that I was unsure if F22 or Eurofighter would win, Eurofighter basically has tech designed to counter threats though unsure about if the LPI radar can be detected by Typhoons DASS, but in all honesty, DASS detecting an LPI radar is very possible as its using AESA tech in itself and is very sensitive:

    http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/Praetorian.pdf

    Just like in that article you posted is the most possible situation against a stealth they expected, they were detected which was counteracted, (aka the delaying stealth part) they then detected and then went in for the kill.

    Here is a new pdf I just found, very new:

    http://www.ila-berlin.de/ila2012/konferenzen2012/upload2012/Presentation No. 3 Eurofighter.pdf

    They try build stealths to counter all future scenarios. However it is more expensive than just upgrading electronics and engines rather than a new aircraft, bit like what happened to the F35, new aircraft from the first F35. Maybe they should build one of these aswell:

    http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/ARIEL.pdf
     
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  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Thanks a lot!
     
  9. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    G777


    F-35 has no bad stealth, from starters, it has much better stealth than both Rafale and Eurofighter.


    Eurofighter and Rafale have both corner reflectors by the virtue of having its wings and vertical tail at 90 degrees of each other, Eurofighter has boxy intake, unstealthy intake design, Rafale has conventional intake not aligned with the wing swept angle or canard add carrying weapons externally with conventional nozzles


    F-35 has much much better stealth than Eurofighter, plus this allows it to get closer for a shot with a AIM-120 and still remain hidden.


    Eurofighter, to the contrary is detectable needs to fire farther eliminating the supercruise advantage.


    In fact Eurofighter needs to fire and run because it is detectable

    F-35 can take off vertically a thing Eurofighter can not do
     
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  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    it does not prove anything of such, first IR signature depends on speed and engine setting, the IR detectability also is dependant on weather, fair weather better imagery.


    The picture does not prove Rafale has lower IR signature, it shows only two aircraft at lower speeds than F-22 without using afterburner only that

    in fact one is an aircrat almost at stall speed landing and other an aircraft maneouvring, at the end when Rafale lands its white nozzle plume is as white as F-22`s

    in this video you can see a closer Eurofighter-F-22 imagery and shows a realistic comparasion, Eurofighter has a large plume when it turns while F-22 only when does the Cobra
     
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  11. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    i am not lying the Eurofighter typhoons started recieving their new Helmet mounted sight in 2010 , see new type an improved HMS, of course they had HMS before 2010 since originally built Eurofighters with HMS, of course you are really lying but to yourself, because no one will believe your story simply because the Germans operated MiG-29s with HMS and they knew the advantages of HMS since 1989 haha so they scrapped HMS haha that story only you can believe


    Jul-2010
    Eurofighter imageJuly 23: The UK’s Royal Air Force, the Spanish Air Force, Italian Air Force and German Luftwaffe have begun taking delivery of Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) to be fitted to the Eurofighter TyphoonHelmet-mounted sight for Typhoon: key.Aero, key.Aero


    England and Spain of course had HMS before 2010s haha
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  12. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Wrong. An AESA system can be without LPI capability, although it would be foolish for an AESA military system to be without.

    No credible sources? Do not provide me with sources from an exercise. We know that exercises can be rigged and often are so for exploratory purposes. Give me a credible technical source that explains how to break LPI algorithm.

    If unable, then you do not know what you are talking about.
     
  13. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Your photos proved nothing because it is easy to take IR photos at aspect angles that are either best or worst and present a false argument.

    Neither do you and I have seen that ignorance many times over. Take your own advice.

    Wrong. Not all AESA systems are the same. What make them different from each other are the programming to exploit the hardware's capabilities.
     
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  14. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Look, I know that F-22 has lower exhaust IR signature. But F-22s airframe IR signature is higher than that of Eurocanards.

    AESA is composed of multiple TRMs, and each can transmit signal independent from the next. So while AESA might not utilize LPI capability all the time, it does have it.

    Funny. Exercises are a credible source for F-22s tactical ability, but not credible for purely technical ability of Typhoon.

    I know that exercises are rigged. But it has nothing to do with wether Typhoon can detect and jam F-22s radar or not.

    F-22 Raptor in action at Farnborough Air Show - YouTube

    IR Signature Comparison Jet Fighter - Rafale - F22 - EF2000 - F18 - F16 - SU30 - YouTube

    Yes, and all AESAs work on same principles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  15. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    ^^^ you know picard why you survived so long with your beliefs?

    Because you have a notorious ability to evade or deflect question raised to you rather than answer them directly.
    Do it too often and you lose your credibility.
     
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