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Stealth fighters vs Eurocanards

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Oct 26, 2012.

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  1. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Also I have seen all those videos of low IR signature of EFT and Rafale on youtube. He is taking them as proof and many other picture not any official statement. All you have to do is just increase or decrees brightness of pic by any good software!!!!
     
  2. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I have seen them too and Its sheer stupidity to take them as proof of any kind due to following reasons:

    1. Different aircrafts are flying at different distance from lens at different speed, altitude and thrust settings.

    2. Then Distinction B/W IR signature of aircrafts is made purely by biased naked eyes and have absolutely no techical evidence backing up. Difference between contrast is so small that naked eyes cannot effectively judge which one is hotter

    If you try to see the logic behind these images
    All aircraft captured were flying at nearly similar speeds then I see no reason why particularly f-22 have highest signature of all and that too inspite of all arrangements made to reduce its infrared signature.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  3. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Theoretically...But not practically.

    If an individual T/R module transmit by itself, the resultant beam will be a broad cone and practically next to worthless.

    [​IMG]

    An ESA array produces a usable beam via the 'wave superposition' principle.

    Superposition of Waves
    Each T/R module is precisely excited and modulated in amplitude and phase with respect to its neighbors so that when the individual waves meet they produce a usable tight beam. Moving or 'sweeping' the beam involves the same method but with altering those amplitudes and phases through those same T/R modules.

    Low probability of intercept (LPI) capability is not inherent in an AESA system. You have to program it in. Your program has to exploit the flexibility of grouping of individual T/R modules to produce a beam of variable intensity across a spectrum. So the issue is not that an AESA system uses it all the time or some of the time, it is that you are wrong when you said that the LPI capability is a defaulted capability.

    What is funny is how you did not recognize that you contradicted your own argument. Exercises can be used to highlight a certain capability when conditions are ideal for the success of that capability. And that works for all parties.

    Yes it does. LPI algorithms that are specific to the military are classified -- felony prison time. LPI algorithms can be hacked up by a competent EE working for the national weather service. LPI-like algorithms have been in use by meteorologists when tracking highly dynamic weather phenomenons to bypass interference, such as discarding reflected signals from outer edges of a storm to tracking its interior. So if you are going to declare that a specific military system can defeat a military specific LPI waveform, I want to see a credible technical source explaining how to discern that waveform.

    Still proves nothing because this is at an airshow where the aircrafts are close enough for the IR sensors to have their maximum detection. We know nothing about airspeed, altitude, how long as each been flying for friction to take its toll, etc...

    But not all have the same programming.
     
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  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    So a software issue.

    I did not contradict my own argument. I have only used exercises to show that Typhoon can detect and jam F-22s radar, which is a capability that depends on hardware and software used, not on exercise setup.

    No we don't. But it does show that F-22s heat signature is not so small.

    EDIT:
    http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA456960

    As far as detection is concerned, main problem with LPI radars is still power - each component of signal is thousands of times stronger than background noise of same frequency. With spread-frequency RWRs, possibility of detecting component of LPI radar's signal is increased compared to legacy RWRs . Jammers also have to be spread-frequency, and relatively powerful, but it is doable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  5. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry but does this bullsh!t never end? It's really frustrating to see them same bollocks being repeated over and over again, even when proven wrong, even when demonstrated that the claims are just that, claims without evidences and even if failures have been previously acknowledged, just let some time pass and everything is forgotten and we start over all again. What a waste of time, but so be it. Have fun I'm off.
     
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  6. satya

    satya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This bullshit needs united effort and separate threads for each issue so that we can draw bullshitters in submission on each topic individually this will prevent them from repeating the same bullshit again.

    I am doing my bit and will present my work shortly I just want few sane men around who can help me.
     
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  7. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I have also said same thing that once defeated this guy will not repeat same point on same thread but will repeat it again and again on entire forum.

    US fighter are bad.
    There politician are corrupt.
    There economy is sinking.
    If they are killing militants they are doing wrong.
    In there entire history everything they have done from world war2 is wrong.
    They are responsible for everything bad happening in the world.

    I don't know why this guy is running this all propaganda against US.
     
  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Don't worry. US are not alone on the chopping list.
     
  9. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Such as?
     
  10. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  11. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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  12. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes you are right, not exactly the same, nethertheless if you look at the BVR diagram, comparaison between eurofighter and other 4th generation fighter, the eurofighter advantage is huge and looking at my diagram I don't understand why. I had the feeling that it is just a little exagerated. Is the sustained turn rate a key parameter for BVR combat? and is this sustained turn rate very different that the Rafale one? Perhaps there is some key parameters missing.
     
  13. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    What I showed does not mean its against Rafale, its just a rough estimation of other jets. My stuff does not say the names of other jets.

    EDIT: Sustained turn rate is needed to manuever away from the missile.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  14. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Can a VW Beetle beat a Ferrari? Yes, and it depends on the exercise set up. Each car have a 'capability' of acceleration and another 'capability' of maximum speed. So can a Typhoon detect and track a Raptor? The problem for your argument in favor of the Typhoon is that we do not know the exercise's set up. Simple as that. Because if you want another anecdotal witness...

    Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies
    There are two main rules at Red Flag, and I have been to a couple of it, which are: No live weapons and altitude limit. Obviously they are for safety reasons. We do not want to shoot live weapons at live pilots, do we?

    When pilots say 'within visual range' they do not mean they can distinguish fine details of a target. They simply mean they can see a 'target', be it friend or foe, with their own human eyes. It is up to electronic means (IFF) to determine friend or foe. At this close range, it is still up to electronic means (radar) to effect target confirmation. To a radar system, the word 'confirmation' mean the signal can be consistently discerned from other signals: background radiation, interference, and noise. Background radiation is obvious, interference can be natural or man made, and noise is internal which usually mean hardware related.

    So to these Red Flag participants going up against an unrestrained F-22 and when they are within visual range identification yet still cannot effect EM target confirmation, what make you think the Typhoon's radar can fare any better? We do not know if the F-22 performed any ECM against its opponents or not. My guess: Not. Can I discern an individual tree from the forest? No. So visual target confirmation of any object for the human eye, even at favorable atmospheric and lighting conditions, is around 20-odd km. Extend this out another 10 km where the pilot cannot tell friend from foe -- to make it difficult for the pilots. Thirty-something km is still well within the target confirmation range of most radars, even the ones from the Vietnam War era, and yet the newer F-15 cannot acquire target confirmation, let alone weapons lock.

    So what make you think the Typhoon can acquire an unrestrained F-22? You have nothing but the baseless speculation/hope from an unknown exercise condition.

    So what? What does 'not so small' compared to? Infrared sensor have the same dependency as radar: target proximity. The closer the target, the greater the resolutions for confirmation. There comes a point regarding proximity that radiation intensity is redundant. Airshow distances are that redundancy and proves nothing.

    The issue is threshold...

    [​IMG]

    The above illustration works both ways. For the seeking radar, if its threshold is set too low, it will end up chasing many targets. Against an LPI transmission, if the RWR threshold is set too low, whatever algorithms it uses to try to discern an LPI transmission will have it creating many false alarms. If its threshold is set too high, it will not discern any transmission patterns at all. The problem for any RWR system is not knowing what is 'too high' and what is 'too low' and that problem existed during the Cold War where LPI capability was a rarity.
     
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  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Please explain how is Typhoon's capability to detect and jam F-22s radar dependant on exercise setup?

    Question is wether it was only due to stealth. Tactics to screw with target lock of pulse doppler radar are known and avaliable to even non-VLO aircraft.

    I am aware of both limits, thank you.

    I know. But distance where pilots can discern type of aircraft by looking through canopy is inside visual range by default.

    What makes you think Typhoon needs radar to use missiles?

    With jamming?

    Other fighter aircraft.

    And that is true for all aircraft, regardless of their actual distance.

    Which is why there are logarithms for analyzing noise.
     
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