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Stealth fighters vs Eurocanards

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Oct 26, 2012.

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  1. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The graphics that G777 posted are taken from a Eurofighter publication (IIRC the technical decriütion document that can be found on the official website). Of course they are somewhat rigged by selective nitpicking on certain parameters where the aircraft scores well. The STR is for supersonic speeds and is regarded as useful for the F-pole, maneuvering into advantegous positions for BVR engagements, separating from the enemy after missile launches and evading threat missiles in BVR scenarios. To be honest I don't know how the Rafale compares wrt STR at supersonic speeds amd high altitudes, but it's supposedly a strength of the Typhoon and one of the differentiating factors in comparison to the US and Russian 4th gen designs in particular which weren't design parameters for them. The data base for the "other" fighters is probably based on assumptions.
     
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  2. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    @gambit
    There are more means for indentification of targets IFF is just one way and performing a sector interrogation may unveil whether the visually acquired target is friend or foe, even if your radar doesn't acquire it and you can interrogate IRST tracks as well.
     
  3. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Easy. We do that all the time with Red Flag, Top Gun, and Fighter Weapons School. All we have to do handicap the instructor/opposition. That will show the student on how exploit a weakness, seek out a vulnerability, and/or maintain a superior position/advantage. Against foreign technology weapons, the handicap will allow maximum advantages for the visitor. That handicap can be gradually reduced until the visitor no longer has the edge. That is how we can highlight the Typhoon's capability while exploring its capability at the same time.

    Does not matter. Who in his right mind would restrict himself to only one method? Look at it this way, if I can hide behind a wall, does that mean I should not wear camouflage? When within visual range, if shaping alone make it difficult for the opposition to target via radar, then why not use ECM as well to make it impossible?

    I doubt that.

    And for that Red Flag where the F-15 cannot acquire radar lock on the F-22 while within visual range, we can assume that it is at the maximum of that range. At close enough, no amount of shaping and ECM is going to help. The 'stealth' aircraft will be locked. But that is not the intention of the 'stealth' pilot: To remain static. Unless we are talking about an exploratory exercise where the F-22 is assigned to be acquired to discover that 'close enough' distance.

    That was just an example. Bottom line is that even before infrared is used, a seeking fighter must still use his radar to point him in the right direction.

     
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  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Unless F-22s radar can use classic Doppler-pulse mode, it isn't relevant. And even then, LPI is not NPI nor it is unjammable.

    You are missing my point. We don't know wether F-15s inability to lock at F-22 at visual range was due to F-22's stealth, F-22s tactics, or both.

    You doubt all you want; it doesn't change anything.

    I know. But that "close enough" varies based on position and angle of stealth aircraft to radar. Of course, it is hardest to lock from front.

    Modern IRST's can perform initial detection themselves, as well as scan area in front of fighter (similar to mechanical radar). Typhoon actually has a mode where radar is slaved to IRST.

    Exaggarate? Nope. Just establish facts.

    No, but we can say that you don't understand what I am talking about.

    Best intensity level to acquire aircraft by using IRST is from rear, true, but it doesn't mean aircraft's IR signature is so small from other angles so as to be irrelevant. In fact, as IRST is completely passive sensor (it can be

    coupled with laser rangefinder though, but that is not the only way to determine distance), it can be expected to replace radar as primary combat sensor. And just to clarify, I was talking about fighter's IRST detecting other

    fighter, not about IR missile achieving lock-on.

    And you are one who tries to make of LPI capability what it is not. Radar signal must be strong enough to reach target, bounce off it, and reach its point of origin - with older radars, signal can be detected by RWR three or four times further than radar's maximum detection range against most targets. As such, there is a lower limit on LPI radar's strenght, as well as on strength of each component of signal. By analyzing received signals, RWR can determine what is radar signal and what is not, and EW suite can react based on that data. By using spread-frequency RWR, it's ability to find radar's signals is increased.

    As for jamming, there is possibility of barrage and of DRFM jamming, both of which are effective against LPI radars, especially latter.

    Chaff, corner reflectors and decoys can also be used, although at least chaff isn't as effective as it was before.
     
  5. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    That's actually not the case. IRSTs can perform volume scans like radars and with the increase in resolution and sensitivity of such sensors they can achieve good detection ranges while searching large volumes on their own.
    A modern IRST can range targets through kinematic processing. Accuracy is certainly lower than that of the radar, but sufficient accuracy can be achieved the greater the offset and when flying some angular rate change maneuvers. Other ways of passive ranging such as image processing against a known threat type taking the zoom factor into account might be explored in the future. At least western IRSTs typically use long waves to achieve better performance against targets where the airframe heat caused by friction is the main source of detectable IR radiation.
     
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  6. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    RWR sensitivity is dependent on direction of arrival and antenna gain as well, with the later being largerly affected by the size of the antenna array itself. A radar can process much weaker returns as it has a much higher gain through its larger aperture.
     
  7. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    First flight of J31

    [​IMG]

    here is a poor video of first j31 flight

     
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  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    RD-33`s smoke
    i bet Rafale has better engines
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. TSUNAMI

    TSUNAMI Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    :facepalm:
     
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  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    American pilots are going know the range of enemy IRST and stay beyond those ranges, same for enemy radar. More stealthy planes are going to defeat less stealthy planes.
     
  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The fact which most members will find hard to digest is that even though americans came late to the party, but have overtaken all others in this game. their Legacy fighters may not have space to inbuilt it but they can hang it.
     
  12. grond

    grond Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Their legacy teen series fighters everyone agrees are the best in the world .... its present generation we have a problem with...
     
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  13. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Not if they can't lock on them due to jamming, anti-radiation missiles, or if enemy uses IR BVR missiles. And even if they do use missiles, Pk will be impractically small.
     
  14. Jackal

    Jackal FULL MEMBER

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    Great Britian/United Kingdom, not England.

    The four consortium members took delivery of the HEA a few years ago, yes, frontline operational service during that time, no. In fact, HEA hasn't been in frontline operational service for all that long on Typhoon. The RAF were the first Typhoon operators to operate HEA internationally, during Exercise Bersama Lima '11. The Italian Air Force have recently operated their Typhoons with HEA in exercise Anatolian Eagle '12. The Luftwaffe did not operate with HEA during Red Flag Alaska '12, nor did they when they went up against the F-22 pre Red Flag. Out of 8 1v1 engagements, JG-74 Typhoon (30+30) scored 3 simulated kills, another (30+29), scored a single kill. At the very least that's a draw - guns only, no simulating missiles, no radar, no HEA.
     
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  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    US IRST isn't any better than European one, or even Russian one. F-35 does have 360*360 coverage IRST, but wether it will work is a question.
     
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