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Su-30MKI Multirole Fighter Aircraft and Super 30 Upgrade News, Discussions..

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Dark_Prince, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/asia-pacific/2016/07/27/india-sukhoi-russia-upgrade-su-30mki-fgfa/87609150/

    India has stepped up negotiations with Russia to upgrade its 194 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole aircraft with the near fifth-generation level at a cost of more than $8 billion. The upgraded version would be renamed Super Sukhoi.

    "A Russian team was in New Delhi earlier this month to discuss [the] upgrade plan with India, which will be finalized in the next four to six months," said a senior Ministry of Defence (MoD) official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    The Indian Air Force (IAF) wants to upgrade the existing and eventually the entire fleet of 272 Su-30MKI to the near fifth-generation level to increase its combat worthiness, an IAF official said.

    While the IAF official said the [Su-30MKI] upgrade won't affect the proposed Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) — worth $25 billion — analysts say the diversion of funds for the Super Sukhoi could delay the FGFA.

    India and Russia inked a Preliminary Development Agreement in 2011 to jointly build the FGFA. However, a final agreement, which will clear the payment of around $6 billion as India's share in the development of the FGFA, has yet to be inked because the two sides have not been able to resolve issues relating to work share in production, the order from IAF and the incorporation of FGFA by IAF.

    "Upgrade of the Su-30 will certainly slow the FGFA acquisition primarily due to financial limitations," retired IAF Air Marshal Muthumanikam Matheswaran said. "But upgraded Su-30 is not the same as FGFA."

    Asked the rationale to upgrade in place of buying a new aircraft since the cost of upgrades are often steep, Matheswaran said: "An upgrade at the maximum will be about half the cost of the original aircraft in Su-30 generation. A new aircraft in place of Su-30 means FGFA, which is far more expensive."

    Explaining why Super Sukhoi will not come at the cost of the FGFA, a second, senior IAF official said: "FGFA is a program already approved; Super Sukhoi is not yet approved."

    Daljit Singh, a retired IAF Air Marshal and defense analyst, explained the difference between FGFA and Super Sukhoi.

    "FGFA has some distinct features, which Super Su-30MKI will not have. These include internal weapon-carrying bays to enhance[d] stealth features, integrated internal fit of electronic warfare suite, super-cruise capability and inherent stealth design. Su-30 cannot be redesigned as a stealth aircraft. Any changes of wing design and material to improve stealth would be very expensive and time consuming and would be akin to a different design. Therefore, FGFA project may not be canceled in total in view of the Su-30 upgrade," Singh said.

    The plan to bring Super Sukhoi closer to FGFA includes modernizing the cockpit for pilots so that it will be easier for the pilots to shift to FGFA. In addition the upgraded aircraft will have advanced stealth characteristics and be equipped with longer range missiles with an infrared homing system, the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, and will have new advanced avionics and active electronically scanned array, according to a diplomat with the Russian Embassy.

    "[A] major part of the upgrade [to Super Sukhoi] involves avionics and sensors. These are completely new with new systems and new software. Hence it has no relation to old problems with software. Engine issues will have to be dealt with," Matheswaran said.

    A Russian diplomat in India, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that after the contract is signed for the upgrade to Super Sukhoi, the prototype will be made in Russia and the upgrade will be done at India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

    Despite the need expressed by IAF for Super Sukhoi, availability of funds remains a major hitch, the first IAF official said. The MoD official also confirmed that availability of funds for upgrade could be an issue.

    IAF has significant shortage of combat aircraft and the numbers are falling; and the fighter aircraft strength of IAF is down to 25 squadrons (one squadron is equal to 18 aircraft) as against the required strength of 45 squadrons, the first IAF official said.
     
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Quote Su-30 cannot be redesigned as a stealth aircraft. Any changes of wing design and material to improve stealth would be very expensive and time consuming and would be akin to a different design. Therefore, FGFA project may not be canceled in total in view of the Su-30 upgrade," Singh said.

    Wonder if it would be worth upgrading my car if it cost me half as much as a new car.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Lets think about this 62 million per upgrade when in 2019 a F35 will cost 85 million. India is kind of getting desperate.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    But the avionics upgrade is superior to the F-35's. Plus, significantly superior weapons like the K-100.
     
  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    K100 is already obsolete, stealthy F22s and F35 will replace the AWACs so the K 100 is useless. If India was buying avionics from Israel I could buy that there may be improved avionics over the F35, but Russia trying to buy drones from Israel and licenses to make night sights from France makes it highly doubtful if Russia is going to produce better avionics then the USA.

    Moscow: Russia has inked a $50 million deal with an Israeli company to buy a range of spy drones, although under the US pressure it was denied sale of some sensitive models, a media report said on Tuesday.
     
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Do you even know what the K-100 is?
     
  7. sunny6611

    sunny6611 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    u seem to know quite a lot about F 35 & T 50 ... so do give us a comparision
     
  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    PAKFA is a prototype, F35B is operational, the F35A will become operational before the end of the year.
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    As of 2014

    January 30, 2014: Indian Air Force officers have had an opportunity to check out a prototype of the new Russian “5th generation” T-50 (or PAK-FA). This is the Russian answer to the U.S. F-22 and according to the Indians, who have contributed $6 billion to development of the T-50, the Russian aircraft is in big trouble. The Indian officers noted that the T-50 as it is currently put together is unreliable. The Russian radar, which promised so much has delivered, according to the Indians, insufficient performance. The Indians also noted that the T-50s stealth features were unsatisfactory.

    The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton Su-27 it will replace, has much better electronics, is stealthy and can cruise at above the speed of sound. Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile). The problem the Indians have is that the improvements do not appear to be worth the additional investment. The T-50 costs at least 50 percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a bare bones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the American F-15.

    The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22 because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such a T-50 was sold for under $100 million each there would be a lot of buyers. But it looks like the T-50 will cost more. For the moment the T-50 and the Chinese J-20 are the only potential competitors for the F-22 that are in development. Like the F-22, T-50 development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 million each (including a share of the development cost) but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Russia hopes to build as many as a thousand. Only 187 F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus, by the time the T-50 enters service at the end of the decade it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters. The United States, Russia, and China are all working on applying stealth technology to combat UAVs. Thus the mass produced 6th generation unmanned fighter may be the aircraft that replaces most current fighters

    There are now five T-50 prototypes in operation. The T-50 flew for the first time in January 2010. Five more prototypes are on order and, if all goes well, the first 70 production models will be ordered by 2016 and be delivered by the end of the decade, maybe. Some of the prototypes are to be handed over to the Russian Air Force next year for testing. More delays are expected, especially after the Indian comments.

    Russians and Indians have been doing a lot of tinkering since the first T-50 flew. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. India wants more stealth and would prefer a two-seat aircraft. The problems with the T-50 engines and the defensive electronics are proving difficult to solve. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM). These problems are apparently the main reason for the delays.

    The Russians want to sell their "Fifth Generation Fighter" (which they admit is not true 5th Gen) to India and other foreign customers. With the Indian participation, Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the T-50 development program. India is not just contributing cash but also technology and manufacturing capability. China is unlikely to be a customer because they have two “stealth fighter” designs in development and flying.
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Next the PAKFA according to every one is fine,,
    October 30, 2015: The head of the Russian air force recently announced that their new “5th generation” T-50 (or PAK-FA) stealth fighter was passing all its flight tests and was now expected to enter service in 2017. This is surprising because in March Russia announced that they were reducing the number of production T-50s to be built by the end of the decade from 52 to 12. Russia already has five development models of the T-50 flying, although one was damaged in a fire. The Russian announcement did not cover specific reasons for the change. But Indian Air Force officials have been criticizing the progress of the T-50 program for over a year. This aircraft is the Russian answer to the U.S. F-22 and according to the Indians, who have contributed $300 million (so far) to development of the T-50, they are entitled by the 2007 agreement with Russian to have access to technical details. The Russians were accused to refusing to provide development updates as often and in as much detail the Indians expected. The Indians know from experience that when the Russians clam up about a military project it is usually because the news is bad and the Russians would rather not share. Until the Indian Air Force gives their view on this the optimistic Russian assessment of the T-50 must be regarded with caution. The latest T-50 announcement may be mainly to keep the Indians happy.

    The Russians have been trying to conceal T-50 problems since 2013, when Indian pilots and aviation experts had a chance to examine Russian progress and noted that the T-50 as it was then put together was unreliable. The Russian radar, which promised so much has delivered, according to the Indians, insufficient performance. The Indians also noted that the T-50s stealth features were unsatisfactory. Instead of answers to these questions all the Indians got until early 2015 were excuses and promises. Russia insisted this is all a misunderstanding, until now.

    In early 2015 the Russians were portraying the T-50 as a specialist aircraft to be built in small numbers. This is what the United States ended up doing with the F-22, which entered service in 2005. That decision was triggered by development problems and a final price per aircraft that was deemed (by Congress) too high to be affordable. The less expensive F-35 is moving in the same direction despite years of U.S. Air Force assurances that the F-35 benefitted from the F-22 experience. That was true, but the benefit did not bring the F-35 cost down sufficiently to prevent reductions in the number to be built. While only 195 F-22s were built, more than ten times of F-35s are to be built. But that is less than the planned amount. Originally 750 F-22s were planned, with no exports allowed. The F-35 is to be exported and it was hoped that a thousand or more would be sold overseas. But the rising cost of development and production is leading to reductions in U.S. and foreign orders.

    The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton Su-27 it will replace, has much better electronics, is stealthy and can cruise at above the speed of sound. Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile). The problem the Indians have is that the improvements do not appear to be worth the additional investment. The T-50 costs at least 50 percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a bare bones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the American F-15.
     
  11. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Now days

    PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: Russia Pressing on with T-50, India or No
    Jun 21, 2016 00:40 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
    Latest update [?]
    [​IMG]

    RT feature
    June 21/16: United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has announced that its Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA is now ready for mass production [​IMG] [​IMG]. According to Russian newspaper Izvestia, the fifth generation fighter almost fully meets the requirements of the military’s combat capabilities. UAC is also currently preparing a proposal to be submitted to the Russian Ministry of Defense on starting serial production.



    [​IMG]
    PAK-FA at MAKS-2011
    (click to view larger)
    Russia wants a “5th generation” fighter that keeps it competitive with American offerings, and builds on previous aerial and industrial success. India wants to maintain technical superiority over its rivals, and grow its aerospace industry’s capabilities. They hope to work together, and succeed. Will they? And what does “success” mean, exactly?

    So far, preliminary cooperation agreements have been signed between Sukhoi/United Aircraft Corporation, for a platform based on Sukhoi’s T50/PAK-FA design. This DID FOCUS article consolidates specific releases and coverage to date, and adds analysis of the program’s current state and future hurdles.

    Last I heard India is aboard but at a reduced cost of about 3 billion.
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Best I can tell T 50 is a pimped up SU 27 with some stealth features. Will it work out, to some extent I expect, Russia has neither the economy, technology or research and development budgets to compete with the USA. US military research budget is larger then the Russian Military Budget. California has a bigger GDP then Russia and 100 million less people then Russia.
     
  13. sunny6611

    sunny6611 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    we all know that but a comparison is still possible
     
  14. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No F-35 B is not operational, USMC declared the IOC, but it's a fake. F-35 B is unable to go to war.
     
  15. positron

    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Fake FOC ? First time I ever heard about Fake FOC
     

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