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Sukhoi option still there if Rafale talks collapse

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by AKIIN, Jan 1, 2015.

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  1. AKIIN

    AKIIN 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Sukhoi option still there if Rafale talks collapse
    [​IMG]

    India could consider buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if the $25 billion proposed deal to buy 126 Rafale jets from France collapsed, a top government official said.


    India had selected Rafale fighters over Eurofighter Typhoons in January 2012 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder for the world’s biggest fighter contract. But negotiations have yielded little progress with both sides haggling over clauses in the proposed contract for nearly three years.

    The official attributed the delay in the fighter project to France reneging on “key conditions” laid down in the global tender for acquiring the jets. He indicated India had left its options open for buying the Su-30s if the deal with France fell through.

    If the Rafale deal is settled, Dassault will supply 18 fighters to the Indian Air Force in flyaway condition, while the remaining 108 will be licence produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

    Until recently, there were major differences between the French firm and HAL over responsibility for the aircraft to be built in India. But HAL sources on Wednesday said the differences had been ironed out and talks between Dassault and the ministry were in final stage.

    In September, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had told HT that it was critical to keep the Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the air force could not afford any more delays.

    A parliamentary panel had recently flagged concerns about the IAF’s depleting combat capability in the context of tackling a two-front challenge – euphemism for a combined threat from China and Pakistan.

    The top government official also made it clear that under existing rules, there was no scope for the Eurofighter consortium, backed by four European countries, to re-enter the race to sell its Typhoon fighters to India. The Germany-led consortium had come up with a revised proposal -- sweetened with a discount -- to sell 126 Typhoons to India.

     
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  2. AKIIN

    AKIIN 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Rafale in storm clouds, Parrikar says IAF can make do with Sukhoi-30s

    For the first time since January 31, 2012, when the French Rafale fighter was chosen as the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has been officially admitted that there are serious problems in negotiating the purchase with the French vendor, Dassault.

    Speaking to the media on Tuesday evening, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there were “complications” in the negotiations, already on for almost three years, with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that IAF had specified in the tender. Parrikar did not reveal details.

    Business Standard had reported on Dassault’s unwillingness to assume responsibility for the production of Rafales by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which the tender mandated. HAL is to build 108 Rafales in India with technology transferred from Dassault and its sub-vendors.

    Ominously for Dassault, Parrikar said additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which HAL builds in Nashik, were adequate for the IAF in case it was decided not to procure the Rafale.

    The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at Rs 358 crore each, less than half the estimated cost of buying the Rafale.

    “The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs,” said Parrikar.

    Earlier this month, Parrikar had assured French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, during the latter’s visit to New Delhi on December 1, that Rafale negotiations would be placed on a “fast track”, according to ministry of defence (MoD) officials.

    The minister revealed on Tuesday that the French minister “has (committed) to send an empowered person to negotiate after New Year.”

    According to the terms of the MMRCA tender, 18 of the 126 fighters being bought would be supplied fully built abroad, with the remaining 108 manufactured by HAL. The cost of the project, originally sanctioned at Rs 42,000 crore, has crossed Rs 1,00,000 crore, according to expert estimates.

    Border infrastructure

    Signalling a major thrust on building roads along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC) between India and China, the defence minister announced the Border Roads Organisation (BRO), plagued by infighting between its civil and military personnel, would come directly under MoD. “BRO is being delinked from the ministry of surface transport. It will be entirely defence controlled and defence financed. We are (also) considering transferring of 6,000-7,000 km of roads, which are not in sensitive areas, to the National Highways (Authority of India),” said Parrikar.

    Weighing against the principle of “dual command”, the minister said: “Ministry of surface transport was their (BRO’s) administrative department and defence was their [operational department]. So obviously there was confusion; when you have two masters, you don’t get work output.”

    Parrikar confirmed the proposal had been discussed with the minister for surface transport, Nitin Gadkari, and both had agreed that from the next Budget, BRO would come under MoD.

    BRO was charged with building 61 Indo-China Border Roads (ICBRs), of 3,410 km, by 2012. Of these, it has completed only 17 roads, of 590 km, the defence minister told Parliament on December 12.

    Parrikar explained that high technology, especially the practice of tunnelling with rock-boring machines, was essential for building roads in difficult terrain, for which the private sector needed to be involved. “The way it is being cut today, I don’t think we will complete (our target) even in 15 years. If the target is five years, we will have to use technology,” he said.

    The defence minister also revealed he was working with the railway minister Suresh Prabhu, to expand connectivity across Arunachal Pradesh. “We have decided to improve the railway and road connectivity. We will finalise things in the days ahead,” he said.

    The minister told Parliament on December 12 that four strategic railway lines had been prioritised for survey.

    Arms agents permitted

    Parrikar reiterated his intention to permit foreign arms companies to station “representatives or technical consultants” in India, reversing a ban on ‘agents’ that had been imposed after the Bofors gun scandal of 1987-88. This had been reported earlier by Business Standard (December 13, “Parrikar likely to allow arms agents, impose steep fines for wrongdoing”).

    The defence minister downplayed reports of increased Pakistani firing on the Line of Control (LoC), stating, “Across the LoC, (firing) incidents have reduced during 2014. There were increasing incidents on the international border but they have also fallen during the last two months, compared to this time last year.”

    Even so, Parrikar emphasised the army’s muscular posture, saying his orders were: “Don’t hesitate; react appropriately and without holding yourself back. We don’t (start firing). But if there is something going on from the other side we retaliate with double the energy.”
     
  3. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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  4. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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  5. tusharm

    tusharm Captain FULL MEMBER

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    it would be a Good decision not to go for Rafale when the aircraft + expensive weapons + infrastructure can go upward of 25-30 billion +

    Obama uncle is sure to offer F35 to us & since IAF's love foreign maal , they will have no problem with this aircraft.
    While i don't like F35 a few sqds of these in IAF will make a few people nervous.
     
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  6. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Wrong.
    The whole point of mmrca was to get a good plane with a reasonable amount of tot to increase the industrial participation in india.

    We get nothing with f-35,,also its primarily a strike aircraft and not a multirole which we need.
    Lastly rafales will cost max of 20 billion.

    Best was to get stage 1 pakfa starting 2016 ,,with fgfa from 2020 onwards.
     
  7. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Two things come to my mind.

    First- This could be a strategy by MoD to force Dassault into submission of its demands as it would be left without a single foreign order.
    Second: MoD might have thought that 200 Su30mkis is much better option than 126 Rafales and will also take care dwindling fighter squadrons.
     
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  8. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Mki's are not a better option.Period.
     
  9. Zeus_@21

    Zeus_@21 Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    2013, the deal is in deadlock...
    2014, the deal is in deadlock...
    2015, again, the deal is in deadlock...
    2016, Still, the deal is in deadlock
    ..
    ....
    ......
    ........
    ..........
    .............
    ................
    2030, Dassault closes its Rafale assembly line. Deal in deadlock till eternity. :achmed:
     
  10. tusharm

    tusharm Captain FULL MEMBER

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    actually the assembly line is almost closed if Indian orders don't materialize .

    Currently they are producing lower number of rafales to keep the assembly line alive for few more years.
    Best thing if we go for rafale is to shift the whole assembly line to India (as was offered for M2000 by france) since the french order's are almost covered.(rather then making a new assembly line here in India)

    The PAK-FA option is good & we should think on it.

    When MMRCA was decided then production line manufacturing etc were taken as an important measure but we have to think that Rafale will not start to arrive from HAL production line before 2018-2020 by the time F35 production will be on full flow.

    Also IAF would be inducting 5th Gen fighters in the form of PAK-FA/FGFA so it is not wise to get a generation apart aircraft's at almost the same cost at the same time.

    For covering 4th Gen fighter's LCA could work as they are actually working quite hard(like someone put rocket in their behind).
     
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  11. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    thats why we are upgrading it to super sukhoi standard. but it will take some time.
     
  12. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    No russian aesa exists in production as of now.................
     
  13. venureddy

    venureddy Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    thats why i said it will take some time.
     
  14. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    That's the interesting part of the article. They gloss over it, but they claim the final hurdle has been overcome. So the entire thrust of the article doesn't matter anymore.

    That's not what @halloweene and @Picdelamirand-oil say, though.
     
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  15. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    well if everything is done & dusted why Dasault need to send an EMPOWERED NEGOTIATIOR ?

    if eveything is done & dusted

    why need furthur negotiations and An EMPOWERED NEGOTIATOR ?

    why negotiate furthur at all

    why not the CEO flies in and signs the deal ?
     
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