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Sukhoi Su-57 / PAK FA 5th Generation Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    According to Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, the 11th prototype of PAK-FA is being assembled as we speak, with 60-70% completed.

    This is the last plane in the T-50 prototype series.

    I believe the next PAK-FA to roll out of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Organization (KnAAPO) after this, will be the first production-grade PAK-FA. Could be called the Su-50 for all we know. Not sure of it though.
     
    surya kiran likes this.
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Russia is running a con on India, odd a new agreement for half the development costs, and nothing about addressing the concerns of the India Air Force.
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The IAF was the one insisting on going for a few squadrons of vanilla PAK FAs. It is not clear if MoD has actually agreed to that.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Arming India

    India Looking At 60 FGFAs As Russia Reduces Price, Final Talks On

    By Arming India Correspondent

    NEW DELHI, FEB. 3, 2016: India and Russia are in final negotiations in New Delhi to settle the contributions for the development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) at a reported $3.7 billion from both sides, Arming India has learnt from diplomatic sources. An early conclusion of the agreement is expected.

    Development costs are to be paid in seven years, starting with an initial payment of $1 billion. The breakthrough follows a price reduction by Russia last month.

    India's contribution for development costs would entitle it to extensive transfer of technology and include delivery of three prototypes. Subsequently, the entire lot of FGFAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF) are intended to be made at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's 'Russia complex' in Nasik, Maharashtra.

    The cost of each series production FGFA is initially pegged at a whopping $225 million apiece, which is about two-and-a-half times the estimated current price of the Su-30MKI, currently India's frontline fighter.

    Sources disclosed that a reluctant IAF has finally been made to come around on the FGFA. But it has reduced its requirement to just 60 fighters, or three squadrons. This is being interpreted as a lack of enthusiasm for the proposed fighter, which is yet to prove true fifth generation capability.

    The initial numbers were pegged around 220, which were later brought down to 120, and now have dwindled to half of even the reduced numbers.

    Indeed, the Russian Air Force itself has committed itself to just 12 of these proposed aircraft, known in Russia as PAK-FA. These 12 aircraft will comprise a trial squadron.

    But Russia is hopeful of persuading India to eventually commit to far more than the initial lot of 60 FGFAs.

    India will have no major contribution to design and development, and the project is being re-modeled on the Su-30MKI lines, wherein India substantially paid for the development cost, paving the way for assembly line production in India under transfer of technology.

    The initial concept of India having a substantial work share in the design and development of the fifth generation fighter in order to boost indigenous capability has been abandoned.

    The rapid headway on the under-development FGFA is in stark contrast to the stalemate in price negotiations on the curtailed order for 36 flyaway French Rafale fighters, which are reportedly stalled at a level of over $11 billion, according to top Indian Defense Ministry sources.

    The FGFA will very significantly enable Russia's military industrial complex to extend its pre-eminence in India by ensuring a follow-on to the Su-30MKI production line.

    Informed observers see this as a shot in the arm for the Russia, which they reckon could impact immediately on French and American interests. A renewal of commitment to Russian aircraft will limit the number of Rafale fighters for India, and also reduce the possibility for Americans to sell a fighter aircraft to India.

    Boeing Company Chairman James McNerney in October 2015 announcing in New Delhi that his company was ready to set up a manufacturing facility for its F/A-18 fighters, which also have a naval variant, in India.

    Lockheed Martin leadership too had in the second half of 2015 made a pitch for selling its F-16 fighters to India, while Swedish Saab made a counter offer to make its Gripen NG fighters.

    The two American aircraft manufacturers and the Swedish firm were competitors in the 2007 Indian tender for 126 medium multi role combat aircraft, which was won by French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighters. The only close competitor to Rafale was the then Cassidian's Eurofighter Typhoon, which is part of the Airbus Group. Only Eurofighter Typhoon campaign, led by the Germans, has openly stated that it is all over for it in India for the Air Force's need for a combat plane.

    Significantly, the latest development in the FGFA talks between Russia and India also signals that the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will continue to be Russia's major partner in India, and its engagement with emerging Indian private sector in defense production will be marginal.

    Just a month ago, Russia rejected the possibility of trying out an alliance with the private sector Reliance Defence on the production of 200 Ka-226T light utility helicopters for the Indian armed forces by opting for HAL to be the production agency in India.
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The unit price of each FGFA will be $225M. That's incredibly huge compared to the 80M price of the Rafale or the 100M for F-35.

    This shows how advanced the FGFA will really be once it's ready.
     
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    F35 is looking cheaper all the time. I learned a long time ago if your budgeting something complicated, figure ever cost to the penny and then double it and you would be close, so if India and Russia are figuring the PAKFA is gong to cost 225, figure 450 by the time its built. Also figure twice as long.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    That's because FGFA is a generation ahead compared to the F-35.

    Even AMCA is expected to cost $200M fly away.
     
  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    All of a sudden Russian being a generation behind the USA jumped a generation ahead, it would take an Indian to buy that. If the USA handed the Russians the F22 on a platter they don't have the economy or technology to build it. I expect Russia to build a few PAK FA to gyp India for as much as they can. It will be a modified version of some of the planes they have now.
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    In case of India, we will have Rafales for now and in the future we will also have AMCA. AMCA is in the same weight class as the F-15C. The Rafale line could also potentially be replaced with the 6th gen UK-French FCAS. So we have multiple fallback programs, far more than even the US. FGFA is just one among many projects in India. India also has a new 6th gen program called Ghatak going on. It is possible that India will announce a fourth stealth aircraft project if Vstol's design is approved.

    In case of Russia, they don't have any fallback. Their only choice is PAK FA. That's why they are putting all of their money into it. That's why it won't just compete with the F-22, but will be all round superior to it in every way.

    So India has 5 fighter jet options. FGFA, AMCA, Rafale, FCAS, LSA. You can say even the F-35 is an option. So 6.
    Russia has just 1. PAK FA.

    That's why PAK FA is bound to be very good. You don't put all your eggs in one basket if you are not sure what you are getting into. The Russians know what they are doing obviously.
     
  10. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Isn't it better to go for f22 at these costs as per different reports


    Barring cismoa lsa with us ?
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The F-22 is overhyped. FGFA is half a generation or more ahead in comparison. F-22 is a 80s design. FGFA is yet to be fully designed. So there's a huge 20 years lead.

    FGFA will come with more ToT. So our investment will make sense.
     
  12. Ezco

    Ezco Captain FULL MEMBER

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    F22 is a 30 years old design, it is not produced anymore, it is not exported.

    PAKFA is not only a F22 competitor, it is a F35 killer. Russia with is pragmatic approach are developing a plane for a third of the F35 costs, they don't have to support the cost of hundreds upgrade like the F35 program. They are not in a hurry as the SU35 is there. They just observe the F35 program and adjust the PAKFA program the F35 planning. Except that the Russians just have few prototypes and don't waste money in building hundreds not usable fighters. The saved money is invest in R&D for the PakFa prototypes, that is why no fighters even F35 or Rafale will even try to approach a PAKFA in the air.
     
  13. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    PAKFA exists only as prototypes, and no one but the Russia's know how well the preform. I am not aware of India having any Rafales. So far the loss ratio of Russian Fighters to Western Fighters is for ever one plane Russia Planes shot down, western planes shot down 10 Russian planes.
     
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Warplanes: Russia Now Says The T-50 Is Fine




    October 30, 2015: The head of the Russian air force recently announced that their new “5th generation” T-50 (or PAK-FA) stealth fighter was passing all its flight tests and was now expected to enter service in 2017. This is surprising because in March Russia announced that they were reducing the number of production T-50s to be built by the end of the decade from 52 to 12. Russia already has five development models of the T-50 flying, although one was damaged in a fire. The Russian announcement did not cover specific reasons for the change. But Indian Air Force officials have been criticizing the progress of the T-50 program for over a year. This aircraft is the Russian answer to the U.S. F-22 and according to the Indians, who have contributed $300 million (so far) to development of the T-50, they are entitled by the 2007 agreement with Russian to have access to technical details. The Russians were accused to refusing to provide development updates as often and in as much detail the Indians expected. The Indians know from experience that when the Russians clam up about a military project it is usually because the news is bad and the Russians would rather not share. Until the Indian Air Force gives their view on this the optimistic Russian assessment of the T-50 must be regarded with caution. The latest T-50 announcement may be mainly to keep the Indians happy.
    The Russians have been trying to conceal T-50 problems since 2013, when Indian pilots and aviation experts had a chance to examine Russian progress and noted that the T-50 as it was then put together was unreliable. The Russian radar, which promised so much has delivered, according to the Indians, insufficient performance. The Indians also noted that the T-50s stealth features were unsatisfactory. Instead of answers to these questions all the Indians got until early 2015 were excuses and promises. Russia insisted this is all a misunderstanding, until now.

    In early 2015 the Russians were portraying the T-50 as a specialist aircraft to be built in small numbers. This is what the United States ended up doing with the F-22, which entered service in 2005. That decision was triggered by development problems and a final price per aircraft that was deemed (by Congress) too high to be affordable. The less expensive F-35 is moving in the same direction despite years of U.S. Air Force assurances that the F-35 benefitted from the F-22 experience. That was true, but the benefit did not bring the F-35 cost down sufficiently to prevent reductions in the number to be built. While only 195 F-22s were built, more than ten times of F-35s are to be built. But that is less than the planned amount. Originally 750 F-22s were planned, with no exports allowed. The F-35 is to be exported and it was hoped that a thousand or more would be sold overseas. But the rising cost of development and production is leading to reductions in U.S. and foreign orders.

    The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton Su-27 it will replace, has much better electronics, is stealthy and can cruise at above the speed of sound. Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile). The problem the Indians have is that the improvements do not appear to be worth the additional investment. The T-50 costs at least 50 percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a bare bones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the American F-15.

    The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22 because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there other than the F-22. If such a T-50 was sold for under $100 million each there would be a lot of buyers. But it looks like the T-50 will cost more. For the moment the T-50 and the Chinese J-20 (and J-31) are the only potential competitors for the F-22 that are in development.
    TIME WILL TELL, BUT I WOULD NOT WANT TO DEPEND ON IT OR PAY FOR IT.

    Like the F-22, T-50 development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 million each (including a share of the development cost) but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Russia hopes to build as many as a thousand. Few F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus, by the time the T-50 enters service in large numbers at the end of the decade it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters. The United States, Russia, and China are all working on applying stealth technology to combat UAVs. Thus the mass produced 6th generation unmanned fighter may be the aircraft that replaces most current fighters

    The T-50 flew for the first time in January 2010, 13 years after the F-22 did so. Once the T-50 flew it was believed that the first 70 production models would be ordered by 2016 and be delivered by the end of the decade. The order number was later reduced to 52 and now it is 12. Some of the prototypes were to be handed over to the Russian Air Force or testing but that has not happened yet.

    Russians and Indians have been doing a lot of tinkering since the first T-50 flew. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. India wants more stealth and would prefer a two-seat aircraft. The problems with the T-50 engines and the defensive electronics are proving difficult to solve. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM). These problems are apparently the main reason for the delays.

    The Russians want to export their "Fifth Generation Fighter" (which they admit is not true 5th Gen) to India and other foreign customers. With the Indian participation, Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the T-50 development program. India is not just contributing cash but also technology and manufacturing capability. China is unlikely to be a customer because they have two “stealth fighter” designs in development and flying. India is too heavily invested to easily withdraw from the T-50 effort, but that might change if it becomes obvious that the T-50 development is going to get a lot more expensive and take a lot longer. Russia has already told its air force generals to prepare for a future full of Su-30s. This also bothers the Indians, who are having lots of unexpected reliability and performance with their two hundred or so Su-30s.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    No. For every western fighter shot down, western planes have shot down Serbian/Iraqi/Syrian etc planes.

    Look what happened when the last time a Russian plane was brought down, the whole of NATO ostracized the NATO country that shot down the Russian jet. And now Russian jets are pounding that country's NATO proxies and civilians without remorse.
     

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