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Sukhoi Su-57 / PAK FA 5th Generation Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Yes and no

    India will not directly pay for Russian share

    India will pay for both Indian & Russian share - though not directly through and through but by then way of the jv making profits and then distributing those profits by way of dividends

    And both India & Russia will receive those dividends


    It may also be de decided by both countries not to include the initial charge for r&d for amortisation - though I think that is highly unlikely


    No

    The whole 8 billion may not be amortised over 60 units

    See a plane consume 3.5% spares of its capex annually if you take a life of 30/years with normal flying hours or 40 years with lower flying hours

    The spares consumption in life cycle xoems to 100% of capex

    So the jv

    Will sell 1 fgfa for 225 million
    Then sell spares worth 225 million over 30-40 years

    So even for 60 fgfa the amortisation will take place over 120 nos not 60 even if 60 fgfa are bought


    If the whole 7 billion are amortised over the initial first batch 60/120

    Then for any subsequent order the flyaway costs should drastically reduce

    However we should remember here that flyaway costs will also include amortisation of plant & machinery etc etc and also depends on how many nos the cost of plant & machinery is amortised over
     
  2. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  3. positron

    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Don't try, I think he is unemployed and possibly less of an intellectual to understand it,
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Paliwal and you are both stupid. The actual numbers to be purchased are 154 minimum for FGFA. The end goal is 350 and more after 2030. And that's just for India. They are talking about 60 jets as an immediate purchase from the Russian line like the 36 for Rafale from French line.

    Russia in turn will purchase 200 initially, their numbers are not decided yet. However they should easily buy over 500 by themselves over the next 20 years.

    The Russians are paying for most of the R&D effort. The benefit for them is they will be utilizing most of the Indian funds for their R&D. Just getting these 9+ prototypes before Indian funding comes into play would have cost them billions in R&D.
     
  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Russia’s air corps is a powerful but fading force
    By Robert Beckhusen
    March 18, 2015
    • American F-22 Raptor | NATO | Russia | Russian air force | T-50 stealth fighter
      [​IMG]
      A Russian air force SU-30SM at the MAKS airshow at the Ramenskoye Airport near Moscow, Aug. 29, 2013. Vitaly V. Kuzmin/Wikimedia photo

      On March 3, seven Russian attack planes took off from Novofederovka airbase in Crimea. They flew out over the Black Sea, right toward two North Atlantic Treaty Organization warships, the U.S. guided-missile cruiser Vicksburg and the Turkish frigate Tugutreis.

      Russia’s state-owned media described the mission as a reconnaissance exercise. The planes practiced tracking the ships from a distance while staying just outside the range from which the vessels could theoretically shoot back.

      This sort of patrol has become ever more common since the war in Ukraine began. Russian aircraft approach NATO vessels or airspace and practice simulated combat maneuvers or engage in reconnaissance. The rate of Russian fighter and bomber patrols near NATO borders has tripled in a year, though it’s still below the weekly flights common during the Cold War.

      [​IMG]
      A Russian T-50 stealth fighter experiences a compressor stall on one of its two engines during a test at the MAKS air show near Moscow in 2011. Rulexip/Wikimedia photo

      Worried? To be sure, the Russian air force is formidable. It’s the world’s second largest in terms of combat aircraft, with roughly 2,500 warplanes, of which more than 70 percent are serviceable. Unlike Russia’s navy, which has been essentially reduced to a coastal defense force, its air force is still capable and deadly by global standards. It has the world’s second-largest strategic-bomber force, capable of delivering nuclear weapons thousands of miles from home.

      But Russia’s air force has a lot of problems familiar to other branches of the Kremlin’s military. With few exceptions, its aerial fleet dates to the Cold War and is getting older. Modern and capable fighter jets are entering service, but only in small numbers. Over the long term, Russia’s air force is expected to dwindle further.

      The roots of these problems date from the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Factories producing aircraft and parts have shut down or became part of foreign, predominantly Ukrainian, territory. Engineers experienced in building jets have immigrated or retired. Moscow put a halt to buying new planes — it bought none until 2003 — and halted most training exercises.

      Russia has a lot of catching up to do. The Kremlin now considers modernizing its air force a top priority. This isn’t just acquiring new, modern warplanes but also upgrading existing ones. In 2014, Russia spent more than a billion dollars on newer avionics and electronic warfare systems, which can allow Russian jets to more effectively flood radars and enemy jets with electromagnetic energy.

      [​IMG]
      Russian Air Force Su-34 fighter-bombers take part in a military parade during celebrations marking Independence Day in Minsk, July 3, 2014. REUTERS/Vasily Fedosenko

      Altogether, Russia plans to spend $130 billion on modernizing its air force through the rest of the decade, according to research scientist Dmitry Gorenberg’s blog Russian Military Reform.

      Russia’s state armament program, which sets out military procurement policies through 2020, heavily emphasizes relying more on domestic manufacturing. “Such an approach is not without its own difficulties,” noted OE Watch, the monthly newsletter of the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Office, “which the Kremlin does not publically discuss.”

      Among these problems is that Russia’s domestic industry has serious shortcomings when it comes to building microelectronics. These components are less glamorous than airframes and missiles, which Russia builds quite well, but crucial to modern fighters. The technology enables lethal advantages like night vision and thermal imaging systems.

      Building up the domestic aviation industry isn’t just a job-creation program. For Moscow, it’s an absolute necessity. A huge amount of Russian military hardware came from Ukraine until the war between the Ukrainian government and pro-Russian separatists put an end to that.

      Ukraine’s state-owned military company, Ukroboronprom, for example, produced many of Russia’s helicopter engines until the firm cut ties last year. Russia cannot physically produce enough engines to modernize its helicopter fleet, according to the Royal United Services Institute, a British defense research group, so most of its engines were made in Ukraine.

      Russia and Ukraine co-built the An-124 heavy transport plane, which relies on Ukrainian factories for more than half its parts. (Though Moscow’s military transports have considerable lifespans.) One of the largest Ukrainian aviation factories that supplied parts to Russia is in Zaporizhia, close to pro-Russian separatist territory.

      [​IMG]

      Two F-22s during flight testing, the upper one being the first EMD F-22, Raptor 4001, October 14, 2003. Courtesy of U.S. Air Force

      Even India’s generals think the T-50 is still too expensive and has too many shoddy parts. The plane’s “engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” according to India’s Business Standard, which acquired notes from a 2013 meeting of Indian air force officers.

      The newspaper didn’t elaborate, but the reference to stealth features could mean poorly constructed sections of the airframe. Russia has produced five T-50 prototypes, and slight differences in construction, such as mismatched angles on the fuselage, can expose its features to radar. The planes also have big, round engines, a no-no when it comes to staying stealthy.

      But the T-50 is still a powerful, fast and long-range fighter, and the Kremlin wants to arm it with its modern, long-range Kh-58UShE radar-homing missiles. The U.S. F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters, and their missiles, are comparatively slower, and the missiles have shorter ranges.

      Air Power Australia, an aviation think tank, described the T-50 as being able to potentially win a dogfight against America’s latest-generation fighters, such as the troubled F-35.

      But even if this is true, Russia will only be able to build the T-50s in small numbers. Moscow wants 60 operational T-50s by 2020, which is optimistic. The first operational fighter was supposed to enter service last year. It didn’t happen. Now the date is 2016, at the earliest.

      Sixty deadly stealth fighters might sound like a lot. But the U.S. plans to build 2,400 F-35s during the next two decades, and has already started delivering them. That’s on top of the U.S. Air Force’s 187 operational F-22s already in service.

      Which means Russia’s most advanced planes will be heavily outnumbered.

      Meanwhile, the rest of the Kremlin’s fleet will just keep getting older.
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    [​IMG] Business Standard
    Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF
    The Indian Air Force alleges Russians reluctant to share critical design information, besides technical and cost issues
    Ajai Shukla | Mumbai January 21, 2014 Last Updated at 00:32 IST





    [​IMG]
    The Indian Air Force (IAF) has done a stunning about-turn, sharply criticising the showpiece Indo-Russian project to co-develop a futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Even as New Delhi and Moscow finalise a $6 billion deal to co-develop an FGFA with capabilities tailor-made for India, the IAF has alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance.



    So vital is the FGFA considered for the IAF's future that Defence Minister A K Antony has publicly rejected any prospect of buying the American fifth generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, declaring the FGFA would suffice. In 2007, New Delhi and Moscow highlighted the fighter's criticality by signing an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) placing the project above MoD procurement rules. Moreover, Indian scientists say the expertise gained from the FGFA will provide crucial momentum for developing an all-Indian fifth generation fighter, designated the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

    Yet, with so much riding on the FGFA, the IAF has taken aback the MoD with its complaint that it would not be good enough. On December 24, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."



    Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

    On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

    Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints. In October 2012, then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, announced the IAF would buy only 144 FGFAs instead of the 214 that were originally planned. Having cut the numbers, the IAF is now questioning the very benefit of co-developing the FGFA with Russia.

    Fifth-generation fighters are qualitatively superior to current "Generation 4.5" fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI. They are designed for stealth, which makes these near-invisible to radar; they "supercruise", that is, fly at supersonic speed without lighting engine afterburners (which some current fighters like the Rafale also do); and they have futuristic avionics and missiles.

    The MoD and HAL have countered the IAF's objections to the FGFA. Russian officials have clarified that the current prototype's engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test programme continue. A new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA.

    Officials also say the FGFA programme involves co-developing radar far superior to the one on current prototypes. The Russian Air Force wants conventional radar for its version of the FGFA, which looks only towards the front. The IAF wants two additional radars that look side-wards, allowing the pilot vision all around. Now the Russians are evaluating a similar requirement.

    Asked for comments, the IAF has not responded. The MoD and HAL, who were requested for comments via email, have also remained silent.

    While the MoD, HAL and the IAF continue discussions, Russia has gone ahead with developing a fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has designed and done 300 test-flights of the T-50, the stealth fighter Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plan to refine into the FGFA in about eight years. The Russian Air Force, which has less ambitious specifications than the IAF, plans to induct into service its own version of the T-50, the PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or 'Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation') by 2017-18.

    After the IGA of October 2007, a General Contract was signed in December 2008 between HAL and Rosoboronexport, Russia's defence exports agency. This laid out general principles of cooperation, such as work share, cost sharing and sale of the FGFA to third countries. In December 2010, a Preliminary Design Contract was signed, which led to the FGFA's basic configuration and selection of its systems and equipment. With that completed in June 2013, the crucial R&D contract is now being negotiated. This will encompass the actual design and development of the FGFA.
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Gessler and The enlightened like this.
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Some info about the engine from Jo of keypubs. The new engine will be 25% lighter than the 117.

    Now the 117 is 150Kg lighter than the vanilla AL-31. The AL-31 is 1570Kg. So the 117 weighs 1420Kg.

    Remove 25% from that and you get the Type 30 weighing in at 1065Kg. Wow. The Russians have developed an engine that weighs as much as the F414 and generates 176KN of thrust. That's something. It's TWR will be insane.
     
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  10. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    [​IMG]
    To see under the plane
     
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  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Yes, it has most of the equipment RuAF wants for the Stage 1. The side arrays, rear jammer. All the IRST and DIRCM systems etc.
     
  13. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Plane seems to change a lot.
     
  15. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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