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Sukhoi Su-57 / PAK FA 5th Generation Aircraft

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tariqkhan18, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. X_Killer

    X_Killer Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Engine inlet incorporates variable intake ramps for increased supersonic efficiency and retractable mesh screens to prevent foreign object debris being ingested by the engines

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. RMFAN

    RMFAN FULL MEMBER

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    Whatever Sukhoi Su-57 claimed by Russia, it is still half generation behind American F-22 stealth design.
     
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  3. cannonballs

    cannonballs FULL MEMBER

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    That depends on the way you look at it. Russia generally develops planes which are counter measures to the American version they did the same with su 27 f15 and now would do the same with su57 f22.

    As such this is a counter stealth plane. You could see that the way they have designed this with almost 360 degree radar coverage and all the other sensors plus 4 internal weapons bay. The point is that in A2A combat it has to be stealth enough that the other plane has to be closer like less than 100km to have an radar lock. And at that range it can pick up the other aircraft using other sensors like irst.

    They know there is no economic way to develop a plane as stealthy as f22 also for them manuverability is the key aswell which they can't compromise.
     
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  4. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Maneuverability is overrated, it was very useful when you could dodge missiles and dogfights reined supreme, but tech has advanced to the point where that's like 99.99% unlikely.

    Avionics, radar, and stealth are most important on a plane now.
     
  5. cannonballs

    cannonballs FULL MEMBER

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    Not for 5th gen vs 5th gen plane
     
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Not only missile techs have evolved, but also counter measures. With DIRCM or active EM decoys coming in, missiles will face more difficulties to lock on a target. Add manuverability and speed of the platform to the countermeasures and you increase the survivability.

    Not to mention that we here talk about 5th gen fighters and the BVR advantage, that 4th gen fighters had, will not be available anymore.
    It's more likely that a Pak Fa or a J20 would face an F35 in short to medium range combats, because of the reduced detection ranges and the difficulties for EM missiles to lock on a stealth fighter. In that case, WVR missiles or even gun fights could be possible again.

    Another factor is, that 5th gen aircrafts doesn't carry many missiles internally, especially in mixed loads. So wasting your missiles on easy 4th gen targets would not be very useful.

    Future air combats will be different again, from what we have seen in the last decade or so, because stealth and the importance of EW changes the game in many ways.
     
  7. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I don't really think speed and maneuverability increases survivability from missiles that much. EM and DIRCM yes.

    Short to medium range still means like 20-30km. Yes stealth means the detection ranges are shorter, but datalink/sensor fusion means it's more of a teamgame than 1 v 1 or squadron vs squadron, which will limit the numbers of dogfights. For example, a land/naval/space base radar picks up a plane 50km away from xxx plane and shoots it down with a missile via datalink/sensorfusion.

    I think fifth generation combat will be defined by datalink and EW. People thinking dogfighting will be more relevant because the detection ranges will be smaller are mistaken. USA had the first fifth generation aircraft to test fifth generation combat, and then designed the F-35 to focus less on manoeuvrability. Is that a mistake on USA's part? Maybe maybe not.


    Just curious, if you were to put in order what's most important on a fifth generation aircraft how would you order it?
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Do you know that it's still the exact opposite even today?

    http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/...he-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/3/
    The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

    “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”


    “Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.

    The F-22 is still superior to the F-35 even though the F-35 has the better avionics, radar and stealth.

    Maneuverability or agility is still pretty much the most important quality in an aircraft today.
     
  9. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Hostage was arguing for more F-22 upgrades at the time when he made those comments. Standard hyperbole when asking for more money. http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25607
    But even if he meant what he said, one person doesn't mean much.


    Maneuverability and agility lost kingdom in fourth generation combat. 3rdgen > 4th gen is when it happened.

    I point towards the mig29 vs the f-15/f-16 design philosophy. http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-to-win-in-a-dogfight-stories-from-a-pilot-who-flew-1682723379

    long as hell read, but tldr: was mig 29 was a very capable, aircraft but inferior to the f-16/f-15 because while more maneuverable it had worse avionics/radar. F-15 vs F-16 in A2A combat had the F-15 winning even if the F-16 was more maneuverable. why? not because of the f-15 speed, but because of it's larger frame which allowed a larger radar/better electronics.

    1) Avionics/Radar/Sensors
    2) Stealth
    3) Payload
    4) Speed/Maneuverability.

    PAKFA sacrificing stealth for maneuverability is a mistake. And it's not some different thought process on fifth generation combat the Russians have, it's the standard Russian MO for aircraft. Same as the Mig29, same as the PAKFA.

    The USAF had the F-22 for about a decade longer than anyone had a working test fifth generation aircraft. They designed the F-35 with the lessons from operating 3 stealth aircraft before anyone even attempted to build a succesful model. I at least hope they know what's more important in fifth generation fights.
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    one of the biggest problems of all these 5th Gen super maneuverable aircraft is that they lack snap shoot ability and all their super maneuverability is of no use if you spend time in opening your bays to launch a missile,that too in LOAL mode. In large force merge, IR missiles can even go off track and lock on to one of your own. So during merge, it is always better to have LOBL.
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That one person's opinion is extremely important because of his rank.

    The F-35 was designed as a strike fighter. It maneuvers no different than a F-16. Hostage mentions this as well. The F-16 is to the F-35 as the F-15 is to the F-22.
     
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  12. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The Chinese took care of that on the J-20 through a pretty nifty mechanism.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Vidyanshu

    Vidyanshu Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Maybe western defence companies. And if that's the case I don't know what to say, as western products are too good, efficient and are delivered on time.

    But if ADA, etc are promoting such an article, I would say that they should 1st get Tejas ready completely:hitwall:
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    this is waste of space and stupid to say the least.
     
  15. Vidyanshu

    Vidyanshu Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    In fact, maneuverability is the only reason why USAF chose YF-22 over YF-23.
     

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