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T-90 Bhishma / T-72 Ajeya of Indian Army : News and Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by SpArK, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Of course IT IS a logical query!!! your post is literately a TEXT Book Answer

    But - do you have actual DATA or you are just speculating !?.
     
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    My DATA can not be sourced here until and unless it is open sourced. You can head over to ASEC to have an understanding of this, if they are willing to share the data with you. There is a beautiful presentation they have over this.

    Please remember that the Defence Budget in real terms has gone down

    https://idsa.in/issuebrief/india-defence-budget-2017-18_lkbehera_030217

    The amount actually being disbursed for new inductions is reducing. In such a scenario, do you propose a cut down on maintenance of existing stocks and inventory to provide for necessary funds to induct an indigenous product in significant quantity to actually make a visible impact in posturing?

    Why do you think that the COAS has made a statement about 7.62 x 51 mm for Infantry alone?

    That is why I gave the analogy as above. The intangibles are never accounted for. And in accounting practices, you can not ignore those.
     
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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Isn't that irrelevant? My socks and shoes story again. Everything has to be ready beforehand, not designed as an afterthought.
     
  4. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Designed before hand??? how are do yo propose that?? apart from the transport ie road and rail

    The others For eg -Did T72 Bridge laying / ARV was designed and built BEFORE the T72?? you do know that all share the same hull?? yes or no?

    The added bonus is the system placed for the Arjun ie - BLT/ ARV / trailer - road and rail - can ALSO support the T72 and T90s - where the others BLT/ARV and other systems can't!
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    They started work on all the support aspects much, much later. That's not how tank designs work.

    There is no added bonus, because we would have to dismantle or scrap everything we have and replace it with the Arjun's. That's impossible. It's like you buy a car for your house, then figure out your garage is too small, so you demolish your house to fit the car in.
     
  6. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    and yet you didn't answer my question

    You think that the T72 ARV/BLT was built BEFORE the T72 ??? Im very sure that not how tank designs works!!!
    Did i say that we have to scarp everything else??? .... damn u went to non-existent logistics, to sock and shoe to demolish your house ! :hmm:
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    You didn't get the point. We didn't have BLTs that could ferry the Arjun across. The actual platform doesn't matter as long as it could carry 70T, but we didn't have it.

    If the Arjun was used in Strike Corps, then we would have to demolish everything we have just to accommodate it.

    Basically Arjun was doomed to failure right from the early 90s.
     
  8. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod MODERATOR

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    Any examples of Logistical issues, are there specific components which do not have reliable suppliers, or are arjun mro just not stocked for some other reason? We all saw the T90 conking out at biathlons, and smack in the middle of russia. I often find it difficult to accept logistical advantage of any russian system over a partly German one.

    Aslo remember CVRDE did not dream up a leopard 2 varaint when the army asked for a T72, the design, the armor, the performance all was as per the guidelines of the Army. Today army cannot raise it's hands saying, it's too overweight, They got exactly what they asked for, and remember this is the same organization which bought wzt garbage from poland with taxpayer money and Tatra trucks at three times the price. So this entire fiscal responsibility argument sounds a tad bit funny to me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Arjun's logistics doesn't exist, it has to be built using significant investment. The army decided not to.

    Arjun isn't German.

    If you want to know whether Arjun has a logistics advantage over the T-90, then @Hellfire is the only one here who can provide an answer.

    AFAIK, the army created new requirements based on the Pakistani purchases. They were planning to get the Abrams from the US, so we needed a tank with similar qualities, so the Arjun was born. After the Pakistanis decided to stick to their old plan, Arjun was unnecessary anymore, so the army pushed for its cancellation. But DRDO had enough influence to continue Arjun's development. The program itself was heading nowhere after that.

    We don't know the exact requirements the army asked for, but I believe they asked for a sub-50T tank with the qualities of western tanks. So even 55T was overweight.

    As for the WZT and Tatra issue, BEML is corrupt, but BEML and Arjun are unrelated.
     
  10. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod MODERATOR

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    Wait, Army ordered 366 arjuns, but did not care to build MRO for the feet, even the local rental car place seems to be a bit more cognizant of Logistics , if what you say is true. Every company I have worked or maintains spares for the forklifts we use and you are alleging no logistical infrastructure exists for a fleet of 366 top notch MBT's. If find that hard to digest.

    Next you are alleging, Indian army of basing a strategic program for the future of Indian armor based of reactionary procurement of Pakistan, I am pretty sure the generals have collective intellect surpassing a 7 year old.

    Who bought the polish garbage and Tatras and commissioned them into the Indian Army? Not the Indian Army?
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    How is MRO related to logistics?

    For logistics you need a supply chain that goes all the way to Quetta, not Jaipur. Give the army a couple of dozen billion dollars, I'm sure they will build the necessary infrastructure to make Arjun feasible.

    As I said, I believe the army asked for an Arjun below the 50T weight. The fact that they found even 55T overweight leads me to believe they asked for T-90's weight from the Arjun.

    The Polish stuff isn't garbage. More were ordered.

    As for Tatra, the army did order it and the truck is good. But BEML started paying bribes into the system with poor quality controls and raised prices.

    Both systems were good, what lead to problems was corruption. Example, if DRAL decided to cut costs and put cheap equipment into the Rafale while escalating costs, that's not the IAF's fault. Money is handled by the govt, not the forces.

    But this has nothing to do with Arjun. Arjun is far too visible for such blatant corruption.
     
  12. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod MODERATOR

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    Please shed a little more light on this. What according to you consists of the supply chain for a T90 vs Arjun. Where does arjun lack in Supply chain, and how maintenance, repair, and operations (MRO) inventory does not relate to logistics of the system.
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    You didn't get the point I was making. Logistics for the strike corps = Moving the tank into enemy territory and sustaining operations. Infrastructure for this role doesn't exist for the Arjun because there's no money or the need for it.

    Arjun is not suitable for the strike corps. The logistics exists for the holding corps. That's why it's part of the Southern Command's XII corps, both regiments connected to an infantry division.

    So there's no point talking about MRO when its within our own territory. And for Arjun even that is quite limited.

    Anyway, the IA only operates 124 Arjun Mk1s and zero Mk2s. Nobody will build a nationwide logistics infrastructure for 124 tanks, or even 238 tanks after the Mk2 is inducted. So it's all about the scale of the infrastructure available.
     
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  14. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod MODERATOR

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    To my understanding that would be, Consumable oils (transmission, engine, steering). fuel+additives, ammunition, maintenance equipment, spares.
    Same as t90's or T72's.
    Such infrastructure would be needed for an arjun if it was 20 tons or 200 tons. Now if it is about being fiscally responsible, if army did not like the tank why even order the ones they have. How is it fiscally responsible to order 250 odd tanks and then let them rot by not maintaining spares.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The ability to transport the tank is logistics as well. For example, our planes cannot carry the Arjun to Leh save for two months in a year.

    The primary challenge is the lack of aircraft that can carry a tank as heavy as Arjun to as high as possible in the mountains. They want to address this with the FRCV.

    They ordered the tanks to support the industry.

    I remember reading that the army pushed for its cancellation in the early 90s. Normally, the tank should have been ready by 2000. But even in 2017, the tank still lacks some capabilities that's been present on the T-90 since the early 90s. Regardless, Arjun's warfighting capabilities are not in question. The problem is Arjun can't get to the battlefield.

    The army is maintaining spares, but it is restricted to one geographical location, namely where the 12th Infantry Division operates.
     

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