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Tejas far behind competitors, not enough to protect Indian skies: IAF

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by stephen cohen, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Sigh.

    You all are so damned good at specs of even nuts and bolts that you think everything is a fine distinction of black and white.

    You are so wrong here.

    You have no idea and unfortunately I can’t post links .... you were wrong on Mirage 2000 and Mig 29s and you are wrong now too.

    Let me just desist here. Wait and watch ....
     
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  2. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    I hope to god at least the 83 goes through smooth. Probably will because HAL was given more money for a second production facility that they have already built.
     
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  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Lol I share that apprehension too. But the game is about geostrategic convergence. Will it be France or US? That is the political decision. That shall decide the fate of LCA either way
     
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  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    There is a difference here. We needed missiles, hence failure there was NOT AN OPTION. M-9s and M-11s were placedby China in Tibet in 1991 to 1993. That forced us to make “giant strides”.

    Here, political incentive to fail is there for GoI, for ADA HAL, the private industry is a threat and opportunity at the same time.

    GOI is going to downsize, and people are looking to secure themselves. Please understand that.

    Tech of Project can be used. Aircraft can be killed. And no one will mourn it as IAF will get its shiny toys, get flogged as always and carry on
     
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  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    That is what the author in idsa paper is pointing out. Tardy and slow. Tall claims hardly any work. And unlike me,idsa has credibility ;)
     
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  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    A poor article, don't put too much into it.

    1. Yes Tejas is far behind "medium class" fighters and IAF is right about that. That's why they keep saying, that they need MMRCAs "above" Tejas, since Tejas was never meant to protect the country alone, it's just the lo end fighter of the fleet!

    2. The article suggests, that the government wanted to scrap the SE MMRCA, which neither has anything to do with Tejas, nor would make any sense, because it was the government that invented the SE tender under the SPM in the first place and not IAF.

    So no matter from which side you look at the claims, they don't make sense!
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I assure you, these are not political decisions.

    Let me explain what I believe is a political decision. A tender is held, two aircraft are shortlisted, Typhoon and Rafale, let's say Rafale wins. But GoI scraps the tender and chooses Super Hornet. That's a political decision. But GoI is not making a political decision, they are only choosing when they will implement the choice that the IAF has made. Basically, GoI has not overruled the IAF's choice.

    As for M-2000 and Mig-29, we were expected to have production programs for both. But what happened is we got broke and that delayed the production line by 10 years. In the mean time, the Union fell and we got access to the non-export Flankers, so instead of Mig-29 we manufactured the MKI. And the requirement for M-2000 that continued to exist changed to MRCA.

    Basically, all these choices are IAF's choices. IAF chose the M-2000, they chose the Mig-29 as well. This time they chose the Rafale, and naturally, GoI can only play around with what IAF chooses for the SE MII as well. GoI is simply implementing these choices based on their financial condition. If I was the DM of the time, I would have made the same choice as the GoI did in the 80s because, as an air superiority aircraft, at the time, the Mig-29 was leagues better than the M-2000 due to the availability of the more advanced R-27 and R-73, the M-2000 was nowhere near with their ancient Super 530D and Magic II.

    So IAF decided to wait for the M-2000-5, a new and far more advanced variant of the M-2000 with the MICA missile, which came out only in the mid-90s, but didn't have the money due to the MKI program, which further delayed it to 2004. They made a fresh request for a M-2000 production line in 1999. Kargil helped.

    This is all about the IAF's choice. You can call a financial decision political decision, but I have not seen GoI make any political decision ever for big ticket items with multiple vendors supplying them, they have always gone by what the services want. That's why I believe the GoI will buy the F-16 only and only if the F-16 is actually shortlisted by the IAF.

    So let's say both Gripen and F-16 are shortlisted, now we need to pick L1/T1. Let's say GoI has been illegally told outside tender norms that the Gripen is bound to become L1/T1, so they scrap the tender and choose the F-16. This is a political decision, but they can get away with it because regardless of being more expensive and less capable, the F-16 has still fulfilled IAF requirements.

    But if the F-16 doesn't fulfill requirements and is not shortlisted, then the GoI can't do jack crap about it. And they won't go against tender rules like that anyway. This is pretty much what's happened with the VVIP tender.

    Why will GoI risk a scam for the sake of winning political brownie points with the US? I simply don't see it happening. If it's a tender, it's going through the proper method, guaranteed.
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    If you are referring to the F-35, it's in a different class to the AMCA. The F-35 complements the AMCA, like F-22 and F-35.

    Any by the time this decision is made, India will have the financial muscle to run both programs, even FGFA. So I don't think funds are going to be an issue by then.
     
  9. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    The saga begins by quoting Sources and Sources. Indian media have made it a shameless habit of "sources" when nobody would have told these top secrets thing.
    Just an Public perception game played by Foreign vendors and our so called 4th pillor of democracy is for foreign companies.

    I very much doubt the 1 hour combat time for Tejas or 20 years. Every aircraft have to undergo engine change after a designated time. Its not new.
     
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  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Both figures are correct. But the Mk1A will improve over it.
     
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  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Darshan gohel, proud_indian and NKVD like this.
  12. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    They might be telling 20 years they need to go for the engine and this paid media twisted wantedly?
     
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    No, the LCA is only certified for 3000 hours as of now.
     
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  14. bharathp

    bharathp Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    shouldnt the LCA's competitors be what is in the neighborhood and what it will encounter?
     
  15. dadeechi

    dadeechi Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Tejas is not going to survive.

    US-India-Japan-Australia Quad Alliance to be formed in Nov 2017.

    India-Russia divorce would be completed in Dec 2017. Modi will reject all Russian offers.

    There won't be any single engine tender either.

    G2G deal for F-16s would be announced shortly after India signs the CISMOA, BECA and GSOMIA agreements. Target March 2018.
     
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