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Tejas far behind competitors, not enough to protect Indian skies: IAF

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by stephen cohen, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Weren't you once claiming that Rafale deal will flop? What happened to that?
     
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  2. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    If you take a look around the rest of the forum, you will see that 'source' based news are pretty hot. Why shouldn't our media have some of that fun.
     
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  3. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    It will keep on evolving. Even in its ioc stage, it made your junk fighter run away from Bahrain. We are working on it and it will certainly be a mini MMRCA with 2000 KM+ range, 5000 KG plus payload, top in the class AESA and EW, Small radar cross section, best in the class avionics and weapon. JF 17 shall ran away when it will see Tejas. Infact it started with Bahrain when you guys withdrew.
     
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  4. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    And we don't run away Janab you just ran away from Dubai Air Show by the way. JF-17 is finding customers you are not so please free to remain quite because your LCA is no where but we have 100 JF-17 by now and ready to export it to first customer and second customer also getting ready to get them
     
  5. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I listen this for so many years that Pakistan is getting customers. Some time SL, Some time BD, Some time Saudi (Yes saudi also wich uses Euro fighter) for pakistan's high quality plane JF 17 and Alkhalid tank which broke down in big number and they cite faulty oil of Ukraine. Come when it this cheap copy of Mig 21 cash cow of china is really exported. China uses 5+ decade old Mig 21 but do not use their own JF 17 which tells a lot about their quality.
     
  6. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    AL KHALID tank breaking down has turned out to be fake as for export orders well Myanmar jets are ready and soon Nigeria will also get JF-17 as for China they have retired F-7 which they were using but you are free to live in your delusional world same kind of mindset was of rulers when Muslims were coming to India they kept saying Delhi is far away and than we saw entire India getting occupied
     
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  7. HariPrasad

    HariPrasad Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Hummmmm They came and we kicked them on their dity @$$ and made them leave india. You had a dream of subah ka nashta jaislamer main and shyam ka khana Delhi mai. It ultimately ended in biggest tank battle fiasco after second world war. repair your alkahlid and then come for discussion.
    And an another thing. Those who were rapped by those Muslims and forced convert thinks that they were their ancestors. Those who burnt their cities and took their women are named with their missile. Surprising some naive people take pride in which they should ashamed.
     
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  8. NKVD

    NKVD Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Another thing with Al Khalid is it's poor armour 650 mm for HEAT and 580 with Kinetic round

    Even milan can penetrate it's low grade armour
     
  9. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    I think it's time to get back to the topic and need not to ruin this thread by talking about junks.
    The all here about Tejas is nothing more than a immatured comparison with the fighter with medium category fighters and comparison with MK1 which will get all as requested by IAF in SOP-18.

    So, junks must get away from this thread..
     
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  10. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Tejas has very low aspect ratio of lift efficiency even less than even less than old mirage III Aspect ratio matters a lot it is the lift efficiency of your wings... how supportive your wings are but the aspect ratio of Tejas is just 1.65 even low than Mirage III which has aspect ratio of 1.94......... and if compared with F-16 which has 3.58 and the Jf-17 Thunder which has aspect ratio of 3.67
     
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I was going to write a more detailed report and bore you and others to death. But due to paucity of time, I am going to do a bullet:

    • Every security decision made by India was a political decision. There is never a military decision over hardware positioned in the same segment when you are the customer and not the producer.
    • Both US and USSR wooed India after independence. The reason was because of NAM and it's 120 member nations. That Nehru had visible influence over most, is a well recorded fact.
    • If you look at the IAF acquisitions at this time and equipement being flown (B-24J Bombers (US)), C-119 Fairchild (US), Ouragans (French), Sikorsky S-55 etc, you shall find that the Indians had access to Western Technologies for use. (the US aid between 1954-64 was to the tune of US $10 Billion, this is to actually put straight the distorted anti-US narrative that has been propagated historically)
    • 2 major things occurred at this time - a) Pakistan offered it's territory and airspace for a 'fight to check the spread of communism' into Indian Subcontinent & b) The apparent bonhomie between PRC and Nehru's India in the run up to, during and in the aftermath of the Korean War. A specific irritant was the Indian opposition to the UN GA Resolution dated 01 Feb 1951 branding China as an aggressor in the Korean Conflict, support to calls for China to be made the UN Security Council member instead of ROC as a permanent member led to India being blacklisted under the US Battle Act of 1953
    • From the point above, it did not help that the basic tenet of the NAM - that of non-imposition of type of governance for any nation, found echo with the Warsaw Pact and USSR. This led to NAM invariably positioning itself so as to appear aligned to the Warsaw Pact instead of appearing neutral.
    • The socialistic model of Indian economy, as also Nikita Khrushchev's India visit of 1955, further dented Indian image.
    • The deteriorating relationship of India with PRC, the Pakistani strengthening by US aid and access to technology and the Pakistani jostling led to the next phase of political considerations driving Indian decisions.
    • The increased bonhomie between USSR and PRC through the 1950s, the 'distraction' of USSR in the Cuban Missile Crisis (they had cautioned PRC against using force against India over boundary issue in 1959) leading to a 'tacit understanding' over a quid pro quo wherein in exchange for PRC protecting 'USSR's flank' it could launch a limited war to teach India a lesson, was reached and the subsequent confrontation with India after signing a pact with Pakistan (the Sino-Pak Treaty of 1961) - created for India a situation wherein only the Western Nations were willing to help India out with immediate deliveries of supplies and intervention if need be.
    • The apparent impassive approach of USSR at that time, did India in.
    • This resulted in India shifting towards Western sources for supplies to hedge itself. But the unwillingness of US to consider India over an ally of 16 years and running (Pakistan a member of Baghdad Pact at the time) again forced India to look to the only source willing to consider giving help in the aftermath of the 1962 debacle - USSR. (this is with reference to F-104 request and induction of Mig-21)
    • The 1965 war was another situation wherein India was again rudely shocked into changing itself. That the situation improved drastcially for India post the famous Soviet-PRC divide, is a well known fact.
    • The diplomatic maneuvers that saw ROC (Republic of China) be replaced by PRC at the UN Security Council with active support of US and NATO countries (till then only Albania was faithfully forwarding proposal yearly to recognize PRC as legitimate representative of China instead of ROC as a permanent member of the Security Council) and increased bonhomie between Pakistan (a dictatorship)-US-PRC (a communist) again reoriented Indian choices.
    • Mind you, all this has to be read in conjunction with the valiant efforts of Mr Dalip Singh Saund, who fought for a pro-India approach in an increasingly anti-India Congress (due to the actions of Nehru, but ofcourse)
    • In 1970s, under Jimmy Carter in US and Indira Gandhi in India (she had already made her mark in 1971 and did so again in 1974, by conducting the PNE) as also Morarji Desai led Janata Government, there was an upswing in US-India relationship. By the end of the decade and due to concomitant 'Afghan Crisis' this upswing resulted in a realignment.
    • You have to be aware that the so called 'Indira Doctrine' was meant not only for US, but also was aimed at ensuring that the USSR was out of the IOR too. Towards that end, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was not palatable for Indira Gandhi and indeed she refused to endorse it or give it any kind of support even during the visit of the Soviet Foreign Minister Gromyko in March 1980. 2 months later, the USSR offered a deal to India - T-72s, BMPs, an option on T-80 (as was being developed at the time) and Naval Combatants, partly to offset this Indian approach and partly to ensure adequate 'pressure' on Pakistan which was being supplied with cutting edge technology in terms of F-16s, Harpoon Missiles and AIM-9s to name a few.
    • It was this approach, coupled to the threat of Soviet entry into Indian Sub-continent being de-stabilising for the region (as found to be true) and a threat for India in terms of both USSR and US, and the criticism India received at the NAM summit in that year, that made Indira Gandhi offset the 'dependence' on Soviets and re-align a security policy according to the diplomatic and political requirement of the day.
    • This became the year when an Indian team went to carry out evaluation of TOW missiles, US tried to sell C-130 to India and one US firm withdrew from biding for Arjun project due to delays and exasperatingly slow pace of negotiations. Carter removed restriction on supply of equipment for a guidance system to be installed on Jaguar Aircraft and permitted two shipments of enriched uranium to Tarapur facility.
    • In 1984, transfer of super computers and technology for digitalisation and improvement in C2I for Armed Forces began along with transfer of GE F404 engines for Project LCA, NV devices and, LM 2500 Gas Turbines etc
    This shifting trend in the relationship, is purely to be seen with respect to the political requirement of India at the time. Whenever any equipment is purchased, the GoI spells out to the armed forces what it can and what it can not have. Plain and simple.

    Now for the specific case of Mirage 2000 and Mig 29. There was an attempt by the Soviets (please recall that Soviets offered cutting edge technology to India in lesser lag time only in the aftermath to a decided Indian shift towards sourcing equipment from West Germany, Sweden, France and UK (US was looked at with suspicion due to being unreliable as having seen in 1956 Suez, and 1965 Indo-Pak conflicts) in attempt to diversify, reduce dependence on Soviets in light of their moves which were detrimental to Indian security interests and in light of the experience of the 1962 USSR 'tacit quid pro quo' with China and lastly, to gain access to technology, a field which was being led by the West and Soviets were clearly trailing and unwilling to offer the technology. The only incentive was that the Soviets offered a rouble-rupee exchange and India was willing to maintain it's force levels by that mechanism yet diversiy and go for advanced tech which was being offered by Western European nations at the time.

    It is in that context that you have to read the Indian decision to go for an Aircraft carrier (Virat), two squadrons of Sea Harriers, Sea Kings, Sea Eagle Missiles and Type 1500 German Subs from Western Source.

    The involvement of Messerschmitt--Boelkow-Blohm for preliminary designing work and Dassault in 1987 for LCA, the involvement of West German firms in Arjun and the ALH program, is an indicator of the deliberate attempt in late 70s and throughout 80s, undertaken by the Indians to wean away from the Soviet dependency.

    Towards this end, the Mirage 2000 deal was specifically derailed by the visit of Soviet Defence Minister Ustinov in March 1982 with 70 member delegation including 31 Admirals and Generals. This was undertaken on a two week notice, previously unheard of and the proposals made then will help you understand what actually transpired.

    Ustinov specifically showed anxiety over Indian attempts at diversifying to Western sources and assured unmatched access and pricing for Soviet products. He also gave an assurance of cutting down time for delivery, a tardiness inherent to the Soviet delivery since forever. Additionally, he offered the carrot of Mig-27 co-production and development, reviewed discussions on delivery of nuclear powered submarines (note the 's' behind the word? And only 01 Charlie came K-43), disparaged the Mirage 2000s and Milan ATGM, offered Kashin Class Destroyers, Su-22 Attack Aircrafts, SA-9 SAMs and licensed production of Mig-25s. Il-76s, Tu-142s, Mi-26s and coproduction was offered again on BMP (BMP 2 this time) to counter proposal of Mirage 2000 and Hawk/Alphajets and IVK-91 tanks from Sweden along with potential purchase of wheeled ICVs.

    Strangly, USSR had earlier refused to give Mi-26 (citing developmental process and own priority), Mig-29s (again hesitancy had been shown on similar lines) and 10 Tin Shield Early Warning Radars, (refused earlier on same reasons :D)
     
  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Funds are never an issue but will be made one.

    Wait and watch :)
     
  13. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Are Paaji Tusi to Dhoti hi Khol dete ho !!!
     
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  14. Zarvan

    Zarvan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    TEJAS Delta wings are very good for high speed but they cause more drag L/D ratio is better in Thunder, F-16 as compared to Tejas
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Long Back, we had a weekend Air force which was established by an act of Parliament called Indian Auxiliary Air Force. it had some 6-7 squadrons and was operated by civilian pilots also working as part time fighter pilots. This was merged with IAF when the santioned strength was raised to 41.5 fighter squadrons.
    Just few months back we had to launch a SU-30MKI to shoot down a balloon from Pakistan.
    Purulia arms drop AN-26 was forced to land in India by a Mig-21 and the PN Atlantic aircraft was also shot down by a Mig-21. The aircraft hijacked to kandhar was tracked and followed by Mig-21s till it entered Pakistan airspace. what I am trying to bring home is that our nation does not fight wars 365 days a year. We need aircraft for air policing duties also like the National Air Guard of US. IAF is making a complete fool of India and they will continue to launch Su-30MKIs and later Rafales to intercept balloons.
    We need at least 10 sqns of LCA MK1As just for air policing duties.
    You must realise that the half baked knowledge of aerodynamics can lead to disaster. Aspect ratio and wing loading or lift are very different things. Highly swept wings get their lift from vortex formation and they also lift as much as a very high aspect ratio moderately swept like that of Blunder.
     
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