Terrible State of Indian Artillery

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by MilSpec, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. MilSpec
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    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Sorry man, As of now most of the Mig 27M's are grounded. Just like Mig23B's they will see departure before schedule.
     
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  2. R!CK
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    R!CK 2nd Lieutant THINK TANK

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    Atleast 2 Squadrons of upgraded Mig-27 ML are in active service and in good shape atleast until 2020/22. However I concur with your PoV.

    Good Day!
     
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  3. Hellfire
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    Hellfire Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Sorry for the late rejoinder. Just got online.

    No we do not have the ToT on Smerch.

    An old article

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140717/main5.htm


    Very true. The ToT did not occur inspite of a MoU.

    The aim is to produce greater number of pinaka units. The problem is the finance.
     
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  4. R A VARUN REDDY
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    R A VARUN REDDY IDF NewBie

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    good discussions but only one person who has reality is the ankit. there is a plan of procuring three thousand artillery guns to the army with almost one thousant mobile guns with 800+ mounted and a 100 self propelled k9,. there is also a consideration for the mating the dhanush or atag with the arjun chasis for an indegenious artillery with tracked systems and shoot and scoot capabilities.
    but comparision of indian and pakistna artillery is of no value since it has proved never against the indian forces. pakistan always edged over india in technology and quality. but never culd beat the indian forces either in defensive or in offensive formations.
    it doesnt matter what pakistan is having as the pakistan terrain is shallow where as indias territory is deep and defenses are every where as major cities are in the range.
     
  5. kaku
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    kaku Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is indeed sad situation.

    [/Quote]

    Yes, Dhanush and ATAGS, all can fire guided rounds. But problem is no guided rounds exist right now. Neither I have seen any R&D going on.
     
  6. NKVD
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    NKVD FULL MEMBER

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    I think you not getting what @MilSpec try to Conway here
     
  7. kaku
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    kaku Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Where are funds? 100 guns for $750 million. What is cost benefit ratio? While 114 Dhanush cost is $240 million. And India paying in INR for Dhanush. This is big thing to pay in INR instead of dollars.

    I dont agree with this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
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  8. NKVD
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    NKVD FULL MEMBER

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    Funds are never problem for IA only the redtapism.half of the funds are already goes unspend every year
     
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  9. SSDD
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    SSDD IDF NewBie

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    The problems of Indian artillery cant be rectified quickly. If we studied Bofors back in 1080s or if we asked Russians to hand us over their Howitzer technology today situation would improve. As of now M 46 Guns are being upgraded to 155mm status they have range 40 kilometers. They cost less. Production of more of them will compensate the loss. Induction of 160mm mortars will also help.
     
  10. Schwifty
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    Schwifty 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Indian artillery gun shines in trials, to be displayed on Republic Day

    [​IMG]
    The ATAGS --- ready to fire

    By Ajai Shukla
    Business Standard, 28th Dec 16


    After 18 years of having failed to buy a towed artillery gun from the global arms market, top army generals are finally reassured that their most worrying operational shortfall will soon be met from within India.

    This belief comes after a week of successful “engineering trials” of the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), from December 13-20, at the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) ranges in Balasore, Odisha. Army observers witnessed the trials.

    “We are on track in designing and building an international quality gun through the ATAGS project. If it continues like this, India will be a major gun supplier in the world market, instead of a major buyer”, asserts a senior army procurement manager.

    The army is usually restrained in its endorsement of on-going DRDO projects.

    So pleased is the ministry of defence that it has ordered the two existing ATAGS prototypes to be transported post-haste to New Delhi and displayed in the Republic Day Parade this year.

    ATAGS is potentially the DRDO’s biggest indigenous project, aiming to meet the army’s need for more than 2,000 towed artillery pieces in the coming decade, generating indigenous manufacture for over Rs 30,000 crore.

    Conceived and designed by the DRDO’s Armament R&D Establishment, Pune (ARDE), the gun is mostly built by two private firms. The lion’s share has been won by Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division), which has built one prototype. The Kalyani Group has built a second prototype.

    Development of the ATAGS system has been divided into nine “work packages”, with each package competitively tendered within India. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) won the tender to manufacture gun barrels, along with forgings giant, the Kalyani Group.

    Other private companies have won roles too. Mahindra Defence Systems will make the recoil system along with Tata Power SED, while Punj Lloyd will make the muzzle brake. During full-scale manufacture, an entire eco-system of smaller Tier-2 and Tier-3 suppliers is expected to come up.

    At first look, ATAGS appears similar to the Bofors FH-77B – the famous “Bofors gun” that India bought 410 of in the 1980s. In fact, the ATAGS, a 155-millimetre, 52-calibre gun-howitzer (guns fire at low angle, howitzers at high angle, while ATAGS does both) is significantly bigger than the 155-millimetre, 39-calibre Bofors.

    155-millimetres is the “bore” of the gun, or the width of the gun barrel. Calibre relates to barrel length; the higher the calibre, the longer the barrel, and the longer its range. A third parameter is chamber size, which determines how large a projectile can be fired from the gun, and therefore how much damage a round can inflict on the target.

    While most globally available 155-millimetre guns, including the French Nexter and Israeli Elbit guns the military has evaluated, have a chamber capacity of 23 litres, ATAGS will have a 25-litre chamber. That would let it fire more high explosive onto the target with each round.

    In addition, that makes the ATAGS’s range noticeably higher, especially while firing “extended range full bore” (ERFB) ammunition, with which the range goes up to an astonishing 45 kilometres.

    The ATAGS is the world’s only gun with a six-round “automated magazine”, which lets it fire a six-round burst in just 30 seconds. Most other 155-mm, 52-calibre guns have three-round magazines, which must be reloaded after firing three rounds.

    Since most casualties are caused by artillery in the initial burst of fire, when enemy soldiers are caught in the open (and not after they dive into their trenches), a high “burst fire” capability is an important attribute.

    The ATAGS specifications also require it to fire 60 rounds in 60 minutes in the “sustained fire” mode.

    Another first in the ATAGS is its all-electric drive, which replaces the comparatively unreliable hydraulic drives in other towed guns. The ATAG’s all-electric drive operates its automated mechanisms: ammunition handling, opening and closing the breech, and ramming the round into the chamber.

    These enhanced performance attributes have increased the weight of ATAGS to 16 tonnes, a couple of tonnes heavier than comparable towed guns. The army is willing to accept a heavier gun that delivers significantly better performance.

    Notwithstanding the army’s enthusiasm, the ATAGS faces a stiff regimen of trials before entering service. In June, “range and accuracy trials” will be conducted to evaluate its accuracy and its effect on the target. Its performance will be evaluated in varying terrain conditions, like deserts, plains, mountains and high altitude; both in summer and winter. The gun’s mobility, and that of the Ashok Leyland tractor that tows it, will also be evaluated. Maintenance evaluation trials (MET) will follow.

    Traditionally, indigenous weapon projects have been dominated by the DRDO. In ATAGS, however, the DRDO functions as a project manager and concept designer, while private firms handle much of the systems development. With the workload thus shared, the project is expected to escape the delays that have bedevilled past projects that were exclusively handled by an overloaded DRDO.



    A look at the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS)

    Designed by DRDO, built mainly by private industry

    1,500 – 2,000 guns needed by army

    Rs 15-18 crore per gun, total cost about Rs 30,000 crore

    ATAGS is a 155-millimetre, 52-calibre gun-howitzer

    45-kilometre range with “extended range” ammunition

    Fires six rounds in 30 seconds, fastest in the world

    World’s first towed gun with all-electric drive

    Weighs 16 tonnes, 2-3 tonnes heavier than comparable guns

    Fires 60 rounds in 60 minutes in “sustained fire” mode


    25-litre chamber for larger projectile

    Source:http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...rials,-to-be-displayed-on-Republic-Day-239707
     
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  11. Agent_47
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    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    @MilSpec
    What is the status of 300mm rocket artillery? India only have 62 Smerch while Pakistan produced 200+ A-100E with TOT . Is that correct?
     
  12. Ankit Kumar 001
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    Ankit Kumar 001 Captain THINK TANK

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    They have ~120 A100E.They plan to have upto 240.

    But they would by now have ~200 155/52 Panter. They got its licence from Turkey.
     
  13. Gessler
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    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Still in development AFAIK. However I think we can assume that the indigenous 300mm MBRL will also be having the option of rockets with a Precision Guidance Kit (PGK) and a range of between 120-150km. I believe this at least partially explains why the Army didn't jump on the Prahaar SSM.

    Although not related to artillery, a more interesting question would be about the Prithvi-II SRBM's replacement. Info I gathered several years ago pointed at the possibility that both the Shaurya QBM and a fully solid-fueled, canister-based Prithvi-III were being considered as possible replacements. Of these, we've already seen the Shaurya fully developed & tested, paraded at Rajpath and what not...but P3 is still nowhere to be seen. If we assume the P3 concept is still alive, we should have seen at least some official news by now. The relation with the K-15/B-05 and need for a platform to demonstrate SLBM technologies somewhat explain the relative quickness in Shaurya's development.

    Then, more recently we heard about the Pralay - another such tech-demo missile project.

    @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @randomradio @vstol jockey @GuardianRED Anything to say about P2 replacement?
     
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  14. GuardianRED
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    GuardianRED 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Here is what prasun said in his blog in 2015

    Since 2012, the US has been taking keen interest in India’s plans for acquiring exo-atmospheric/endo-atmospheric interceptor missiles, especially after the latter officially decided not to field a new generation of solid-fuelled tactical ballistic missiles—be they conventionally armed or nuclear-capable—for replacing the liquid-fuelled Prithvi-1 NLOS-BSMs of 1990s vintage. What this essentially meant, was that unlike Pakistan, India will not use ballistic missiles of any type that are conventionally armed, since such weapons have zero counter-force/counter-strike value. Pakistan, on the other hand, views conventionally armed ballistic missiles as weapons that can be employed as ‘terror weapons’ against civilian targets like large Indian cities as part of an effort to demoralise the civilian population residing in cities that are either India’s financial hubs, or technological hubs.

    http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ae/2015/10/the-iafs-perception-management.html
     
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  15. Gessler
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    Gessler Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Against Pakistan, use of SRBMs might just be completely done away with and the offensive tactical role taken over by a mix of ground & air-launched BrahMos, Nirbhay LACMs and use of specialized munitions like SAAW.

    But against China which has extensive cruise missile defenses and highly integrated ADN, and which would be making use of large numbers of Short/Medium-Range DF-16/18-type solid-fueled BMs against air & army bases? Our cruise missiles will be indispensable nonetheless, but use of tactical ballistic missiles of the P3/Shaurya type could also be necessary. I did hear from PKSG that we were building extensive mountain/underground complexes (horseshoe-shaped I believe) to house conventional/nuclear BM/CMs closer to the Tibetan border than any existing strategic site like this (which mostly exist only in peninsular India).

    But don't worry, I'll soon have a chat with Prasun and get his latest opinions on the matter.
     

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