The Flying White Elephant

Discussion in 'U.S. & Europe' started by Picdelamirand-oil, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    When I was a Dassault insider my colleagues had explained to me the conditions of this study. The question was to know what was Dassault's secret in order to be able to remain at the forefront of progress and to make such powerful planes with such low budgets.

    Dassault's employees had been instructed to show everything to the Rand corporation of the methods employed. But the Rand did not understand anything and could not explain the reasons for Dassault's success. In fact Americans are so persuaded of their superiority that they have judged the French methods in their referenciel, giving a favorable appreciation when the approaches were similar.

    To truly understand, they would have had to judge American methods in the French referential, giving an unfavorable appreciation when the methods differed. But they were unable to question themselves at this point, and that is why they were told everything
     
  2. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Can you provide some examples?
     
  3. Averageamerican
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    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Dassault success mainly comes from paying bribes to countries to buy obsolete weapons. Offsets for the Rafale are 50 percent, India cant absorb the off sets they are entitled to now, India does not have global standards in quality and processes and certifications to handle a billion dollars in offsets a year.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
  4. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    The first off set will be to improve their standards in quality and processes and certifications. It's why HAL was an obstacle to MMRCA, because they refused to change their processes.
     
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  5. halloweene
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    halloweene Major STRATEGIST

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    Like LM about F-104G?
     
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  6. halloweene
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    halloweene Major STRATEGIST

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    Just talked to a test pilot in Istres. He participated to Bold quest exercise end of 2015, aswell as some Edwards F-35. Asked him if RBE2-AESA could follow F-35 his answer was "every radars followed every planes" + a wink smiley....
     
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  7. Averageamerican
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    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    December 7/16: The Pentagon’s chief arms buyer, Frank Kendell, is hopeful [​IMG] [​IMG] that a three-year block buy of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will go ahead. Covering some 400 F-35 units for both the US military branches and partner nations, the agreement is expected to generate large savings through bigger economies of scale between the fiscal years 2018 through 2020. Negotiations with lead contractor Lockheed Martin, however, have been slow as seen in the year-long negotiations of the fighter’s ninth batch, while the government’s chief weapons tester, Michael Gilmore, has long argued about the need to test the planes before buying and building larger quantities.
     
  8. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Such a block buy is illegal before Milestone C.
     
  9. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    What if Trump's next tweet is about the F-35?
    WEDNESDAY , DECEMBER 07, 2016 - 5:30 AM8 comments


    [​IMG]
    Image by: U.S. Air Force photo by R. Nial Bradshaw

    STANDARD-EXAMINER EDITORIAL BOARD

    President-elect Donald Trump tweeted this Tuesday, Dec. 6:

    “Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion. Cancel order!”

    If he feels that strongly about the cost of Air Force One, imagine what he’d tweet about the F-35.

    Air Force One isn’t just an upgraded commercial airliner — it’s a flying command post, built to protect the president in the event of nuclear war. Boeing was chosen in January 2015 to develop two new Air Force Ones, scheduled to become operational in the 2020s.

    But the plane is early in its development process, according to Todd Harrison, a defense analyst with the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

    “Very, very early,” Harrison told The Washington Post.

    Including $2 billion for research and development, the U.S. Government Accountability Office estimated the program’s total cost at about $3.2 billion. Where Trump came up with the extra billion isn’t clear.

    But we know the cost of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, based at Hill Air Force Base — $400 billion. And we know it went $163 billion over budget.

    We also know it’s the most sophisticated fighter jet in the air, it’s vital to Hill’s future,and Trump is suspicious of it.

    During an October 2015 radio interview with Hugh Hewitt, said the F-35 is too expensive, he’s heard “that it’s not very good” and that “our existing planes are better.”

    Not to worry, said U.S. Rep. Rob Bishop, a Republican whose district includes Hill AFB.

    “The key element to it is how long ago that quote was made,” Bishop told Mitch Shaw, a reporter for the Standard-Examiner. “I think those he will appoint to serve in the Pentagon will have a clear understanding that this jet is the future of our national defense.”

    Sen. Orrin Hatch sounded a similar note.

    “In future conversations, I plan to emphasize the superior capabilities of the F-35 and the indispensable role this aircraft plays in our national defense strategy,” Hatch said in an email to the Standard. “The F-35 has overcome many of the inevitable problems that occur when fielding any new fighter.”

    But all of that was before Trump tweeted about Air Force One.

    Bishop, Hatch and the rest of Utah’s congressional delegation need to reach out to Trump’s transition team and begin defending the F-35 immediately. So does Gov. Gary Herbert.

    Because if Trump’s already calling for the cancellation of the Air Force One program, he could just as easily target the F-35 — and that’s a potential disaster for Northern Utah.

    http://www.standard.net/Our-View/20...ForceBase-Utah-RobBishop-OrrinHatch-editorial
     
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  10. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Photo of program director F-35 taken yesterday.

    [​IMG]

     
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  11. R!CK
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    R!CK 2nd Lieutant THINK TANK

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    Regardless of what Trump tweets now, new Air Force One's are coming. The current air frames are from 1987 era. He will soon realize his flying fortress may aswell be a flying bomb in couple of years. There is a limit to how much longer these jet's life can be stretched and Boeing is not going to be making 747s forever. The current 2020 timeline is a stretch to an already dissolving 747-8 order book. I'd personally ignore Trump's tweets until he takes over the office. For now everything he says is as relevant as any other citizen who doesn't involve expert opinion.

    Good Day!
     
  12. Averageamerican
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    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Israel readies for 'super-tech' stealth fighters
    [​IMG]
    Mike Smith
    AFPDecember 9, 2016
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    Israel is to receive its first F-35 stealth fighter jets, hailed as technological marvels whose helmets alone cost more than most people's homes but criticised for their price and earlier flaws
    Israel is to receive its first F-35 stealth fighter jets, hailed as technological marvels whose helmets alone cost more than most people's homes but criticised for their price and earlier flaws (AFP Photo/ADRIAN DENNIS)

    Jerusalem (AFP) - Israel will on Monday receive its first F-35 stealth fighter jets, hailed as technological marvels whose helmets alone cost more than most people's homes but criticised for their price and initial flaws.

    Built by US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, the first two planes' arrival in Israel is being welcomed as a major event for the country's military as it seeks to maintain dominance in the turbulent Middle East.

    US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter is to attend the arrival along with his Israeli counterpart Avigdor Lieberman at the Nevatim air base in the country's south.

    The delivery of the first two of 50 F-35s to be purchased by Israel comes as the years-long development of the most expensive plane in history reaches a critical stage.

    While a list of countries have ordered the planes, Israel, which receives more than $3 billion a year in US defence aid, will be the first with an operational F-35 squadron outside the United States.

    "I think we don't fully understand the big advantage of the F-35," an Israeli air force official said.

    "I think it's going to be learned in the next few months, maybe years. I think it's a very super-tech airplane."

    Israel has given it the name "Adir" -- which means "mighty" in Hebrew. Its first planes are expected to be operational within a year after delivery.

    It will be receiving the F-35A model for standard takeoff and landings. The B and C models are for short takeoffs and aircraft carriers.

    Among their main features are advanced stealth capabilities to help pilots evade sophisticated missile systems.

    The single-pilot jets can carry an array of weapons and travel at a supersonic speed of Mach 1.6, or around 1,200 miles per hour (around 1,900 kilometres per hour).

    It is unclear if Israel's planes will be able to deliver nuclear bombs. Israel is believed to be the Middle East's sole nuclear-armed power, though it has never acknowledged it.

    - High-tech helmet -

    The ultra-high-tech helmet, at a cost of some $400,000 each, sounds like something out of a science-fiction film.

    It includes its own operating system, with data that appears on the helmet visor and is also shared elsewhere.

    Thermal and night vision as well as 360-degree views are possible with cameras mounted on the plane.

    Israeli firm Elbit Systems has been involved in the helmet's production.

    In Israel, the planes, designed for multiple combat situations, will initially replace a group of ageing F-16s.

    They are seen as helping the country maintain its edge in the Middle East, particularly as its main enemy Iran seeks further influence in the region.

    "The F-35 has been designed to deal with the most advanced threat systems now being fielded in the Middle East," Lockheed Martin's Steve Over told AFP by email.

    Israel is especially concerned over whether Iran will seek to develop nuclear weapons by violating the international accord it has signed with world powers aimed at preventing it.

    The country is also keeping an eye on Lebanon's powerful Shiite militant group Hezbollah, with which Israel fought a devastating war in 2006.

    Beyond that, in neighbouring Syria, Russia has deployed the sophisticated S-300 and S-400 anti-aircraft systems as it conducts an air campaign in support of President Bashar al-Assad.

    - 'Only game in town' -

    Israel is buying its first 33 jets at an average price of about $110 million (103.5 million euros) each.

    The government last month approved the purchase of the remaining 17.

    As a comparison, in 2001, Israel agreed to buy 52 additional F-16s from Lockheed Martin at a total cost of $1.3 billion.

    While the technology can seem dazzling, there have been questions over whether the plane will be worth the cost.

    A list of flaws have been uncovered, including one where pilots who weighed less than 136 pounds (62 kilos) risked being killed by its eject system.

    There have also been software bugs and technical glitches, though Lockheed Martin assures such issues have been overcome.

    Some in Israel have also said the price of the planes will limit the number that can ultimately be purchased, while losing any in combat will be particularly costly.

    There have also been questions over whether upgrades to the air force's existing fleet could have sufficed.


    But the F-35 was "the only game in town" since Israel relies so heavily on US defence aid, said Yiftah Shapir of Israel's Institute for National Security Studies.

    "We couldn't go and buy French or British or Russian," he said. "When you have an ally like the United States, the United States would not have allowed that."

    In the United States, the air force declared an initial squadron of F-35As ready for combat in August, without giving a timeline for actual combat.

    The US Marine Corps in 2015 announced that a first group of F-35Bs had attained initial operational capability, though these too have not yet been used in combat.
     
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  13. Golden_Rule
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    Golden_Rule 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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  14. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Lt. Col. Anker Steen Sørensen, Danish Air Force (retired)

    I'm a retired Lieutenant Colonel from the Royal Danish Air force. I have flown the F-16 for 16 years. Been Squadron Commander, Base Commander Operations, Base Commander and Inspector General Flight Safety Armed Forces Denmark.

    In my career I also worked at Air Force Tactical Command and was responsible for the operational requirements for new fighter aircraft.
    In this connection I repeatedly took part in simulated flights with Joint Strike Fighter at Wright Patterson AFB in the United States and also in England.

    To make the simulations as realistic a as possible, we participated with operational pilots.

    On one of these simulations, I had a Danish test pilot with me. In addition, there were participants from a number of other countries.
    We also simulated Joint Strike Fighter against Russian fighter aircraft where we flew two against two.

    In the forenoon I and the Danish test pilot was flying Joint Strike Fighters against two Russian fighters. In the afternoon we swapped, so we flew Russian fighter aircraft against the Joint Strike Fighter.

    In the afternoon the first thing the test pilot and I noticed was that the Russian fighters was not loaded with the best air-to-air missiles as the Russians have in real life. We therefore asked about getting some better. It was denied us. We two pilots complained but it was not changed.

    My test pilot and I decided in our simulated Russian combat aircraft to fly “line abreast”, but with 25 nautical miles distance. Then at least one of us could with radar look into the side of the Joint Strike Fighter and thus view it at long distance. The one who “saw” the Joint Strike Fighter could then link the radar image to the other. Then missiles could be fired at long distance at the Joint Strike Fighter.
    It was also denied us, although we protested this incomprehensible disposition.

    It was now quite clear to us that with the directives and emotional limitations simulations would in no way give a true and fair view of anything. On the other hand, it would show that the Joint Strike Fighter was a good air defense fighter, which in no way can be inferred from the simulations. We spoke loudly and clearly that this way was manipulating with the Joint Strike Fighter air defence capability.

    Because of these circumstances, I would not let the Danish Air Force be included as part of the totally misleading/non-transparent results, which alone would show Joint Strike Fighters superiority in the air defence role, which it would not have been against an opponent with missiles with a far better
    performance than those who we were given permission to. Also there was given major obstacles in the way flying tactically against the Joint Strike Fighter.

    We therefore left simulations, returned to Denmark and complained to the Chief of Staff Tactical Air Command and technical manager Air Material Command.

    Due to these conditions and having insight into what else was going on, attempts were made from the Danish side to get an operational pilot to the Joint Program Office but due to some special circumstances it at that time failed.

    With my speech, I would like to draw attention to the fact that at least some of the air to air simulations that have been carried out, in no way give a true and fair view of the Joint Strike Fighter in the air defence role.

    I consider it to be a disaster if simulations as mentioned above are accepted and thus forms part of a possible decision to choose the Joint Strike Fighter.
     
  15. halloweene
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    halloweene Major STRATEGIST

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