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The Flying White Elephant

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picdelamirand-oil, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    China has 620 million people of military age, Russia 47 million, China has 3 times the number of military personal that
    Russia has. Just the 65 billion increase in USA budget is as large as the entire budget of Russia's military which is about 46 billion about 1/4 that of China. and about 1/12 that of USA. Real World.
     
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Trump intends to slash spending on many of the federal government’s most politically sensitive programs — relating to education, the environment, science and poverty — to protect the economic security of retirees and to shift billions more to the armed forces.

    The proposal to increase military spending by $54 billion and cut nonmilitary programs by the same amount was unveiled by White House officials as they prepared the president’s plans for next year’s federal budget. Aides to the president said final decisions about Medicare and Social Security would not be made until later in the year, when he announces his full budget. But Sean Spicer, his spokesman, cited Mr. Trump’s campaign commitments about protecting those programs and vowed that “he’s going to keep his word to the American people.”
     
  3. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    In the case of F-35 LRIPs are used in an unconventional way: small quantity production means around 10 plane (like Rafale F1 for exemple) but US have produce more than 200 F_35 as LRIP one and more than 493 are planned before Milestone C and only after that there will be serial production of F-35. And every body included Lockheed Martin is currently speaking of LRIP price, for exemple the price advertised as a result of Trump negociation is the price of the futur LRIP 10. It is likely that L.M. will produce more F-35 as LRIP one Than the Typhoon Eurofighter will produce. In fact it is a way for L.M. of not respecting the law, and producing before Milestone C.

    Yes, this is the right approach, and the main criticism of the F-35 program is that it does not respect good practices, which will entail huge retrofit costs.

    You misunderstood "Upgrades to lift fan system" (for exemple) it is a recurring cost because it is a modification of the basic definition of lift fan system due to Development tests

    I think that the one who tries to mislead the readers is you.
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The F35 is designed to be upgraded,
    Nellis Completes F-35 Upgrade at Home
    Air Force Magazine // August 13, 2015


    Technicians at Nellis AFB, Nev., have completed an upgrade for the base's first two F-35A fighters, installing the 2B software and avionics package on-site to save time, rather than sending them to a depot-level facility.



    [​IMG]
    The on-site work to the F-35As allow Nellis' F-35s to stay at home and focus on tactics development and training activities as USAF pushes toward initial operational capability for the fleet. "Having only eight aircraft assigned to our unit, a 25-percent reduction puts the pressure on the maintainers to keep them flying," aircraft maintenance unit production superintendent MSgt. Travis Hoogstraten said in a release Aug. 6. The 2B package expands the F-35's flight envelope to include supersonic flight and more demanding maneuvers, and improves pilot interface and targeting abilities. Because of Nellis' role in refining tactics for the F-35 fleet, "upgrading our aircraft to 2B is not only essential to Air Force initial operating capability, but the progression of the joint F-35 program," added Hoogstraten. Working with Lockheed Martin, the unit managed to complete the first 1B-to-2B upgrade without impacting unit flying rates, in half the time it would have taken to send the aircraft elsewhere, according to the release. The first upgrade began in May and was finished in early July.
     
    halloweene likes this.
  5. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It is not about the A model it is the COMPLETE spendings within LRIP7 program. The only one one can get due to fiscal year. FAR FROM ADVERTISED NUMBERS. And it is OFFICIAL information. so you admit the sub 100 million price isbased on future POTENTIAL cost decreases which do not exist nowadays. Hint : using same methodology, and maybe without all contracts due to fiscal years, LRIP 8 is MORE expensive.
     
  6. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Btw, F-35 will be involved in Trilat exercise very soon....
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  8. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The number built is inconsequential. The production rate is still low and modifications and retrofits are taking place. LRIP-7 started 4 years ago. The US manufacturers on a much larger scale than Dassault's little cottage industry, so of course you might be surprised by how big LRIP batches are. Only 132 aircraft have been built prior to LRIP 7, as you can see in first link, that represents <1/20th of total production (3,000+), so in Rafale terms, that's like 6 aircraft. Why do they do this? Well if you aren't operating a significant number of aircraft, you can't assess whether RMA targets are being met.

    https://www.f35.com/news/detail/lrip-6-7-contract-agreements

    FRP does not start until 2018. The $94.6m figure is for LRIP-10, which started last year. The target price for FRP-2 is $83.4m. By comparison, LRIP-7 is $98m without the engine for the A, and $104m for the B, but testing showed that modifications were necessary, hence the additional costs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Procurement_costs

    http://www.defensenews.com/articles/pentagon-lockheed-sign-f-35-contract-for-90-jets

    For LRIP 10, the per-plane price of an F-35A model sits at $94.6 million (7.3% reduction from LRIP 9), an F-35B jump-jet model used by the U.S. Marine Corps sits at $122.8 million (6.7% reduction from LRIP 9), and an F-35C carrier version is at $121.8 million (7.9% reduction from LRIP 9).

    As befits the largest overall customer for the stealth fighter, the U.S. Air Force makes up the majority of the procurement in this lot, but it also features an increasing number of international customers. Deliveries from this lot will begin in early 2018. Overall, the lot is made up of:

    • 44 F-35A for the U.S. Air Force
    • 9 F-35B for the U.S. Marine Corps
    • 2 F-35C for the U.S. Navy
    • 3 F-35B for UK
    • 6 F-35A for Norway
    • 8 F-35A for Australia
    • 2 F-35A for Turkey
    • 4 F-35A for Japan
    • 6 F-35A for Israel
    • 6 F-35A for South Korea
    In total, the Lot 10 contract represents a $728 million reduction when compared to Lot 9. If Trump’s influence can be felt anywhere, it may be in the speed of the contract negotiation – Lockheed fought hard against the Pentagon’s cost goals in LRIP 9, to the point that the Pentagon unilaterally forced a contract on the company.

    No it isn't, 'upgrade' entails design and testing work associated with that upgrade, once the upgrade is done, you are left with the production cost. Seriously, are you being deliberately thick here? Should the design, development, retrofit and testing costs for the M88 ECO demonstrator be included in the unit price of every Rafale? Is that a recurring cost?

    Yeah right, which is why you're now trying to claim LRIP = FRP and including testing-induced mods and retrofits in final unit price, when it actually only affects a small batch from 4 years ago. Even that batch didn't actually cost that much when delivered, it was post-production mods that took it to that price, so again, that's exactly like including RBE2-AA and DDM-NG retrofits and avionics hardware updates in general unit price for Rafales. If I was reading this as an Indian, at this point I'd be seriously concerned that you had, because you don't seem to understand that mods and retrofits are only paid for on a few aircraft, not all aircraft.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  9. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    And what were the advertised costs for LRIP7? (they are in the article). The problem is the huge discrepancy between the advetised cost and the real cost.
     
  10. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    £20 that some idiot will come back and say the Rafale beat the F-35 in a dogfight, one where HMCS and EODAS use was prohibited.
     
  11. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Which is explained by things like engine re-design, manufacture, removal, retrofit and all the other mods. Also don't forget the initial $104m for the B never included the engine and lift fan price. Now I don't know about LRIP 7, but for the LRIP 10 costs, which include the engine, the engines cost $16.7m each on average, so probably $20+m for the B's engine + fan. So for LRIP 7, you were probably looking at ~$130m + re-design, retrofit and mods costs amounting to $60m. As you can see though, production is ramping up and an FRP-ready aircraft is approaching.

    http://www.utc.com/News/PW/Pages/F-...Whitney-LRIP-10-Contract-for-F135-Engine.aspx

    [​IMG] [​IMG]F35 PRODUCTION LIVE VS RAFALE PRODUCTION LINE [​IMG] 11 A YEAR.
     
  12. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    What you'll write is what you'll get. Just be careful, and execute some of your trading clercs.
     
  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    :fighting1:

    What is important is not that 132 aircrafts have been built prior to LRIP 7 but that 493 aircrafts will be build before Milestone C, in term of Typhoon production it is like producing 100 aircrafts as LRIP.

    But this has no incidence on the reel price of LRIP 7 compare to advertised price of the same LRIP7.

    Our approach is to verify what is advertised, and for that we look at official data allocated to LRIP 7, Data on FRPs are on other budgetary lines.
     
  14. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Really it's does not matter. Destroying of dams on main rivers, strike on powerplants, most populated regions, other vulnerable and important targets will turn China in Chaose. Every Russian heavy brigade is equal to ten-twenty China brigades, even without problems with logistic and climate. Do you remember problems of European Armies of France and Germany in a warm European part of Russia with good infrastructure? So, think about problems of tropical and subtropical China's Army in Mongolia and Siberia? Sometimes I really want to see it. It will be a comedy - funny, but cruel and short.
     
  15. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The design, development, testing of the lift fan are not included in the LRIP7 budgetary line that we use to compute the real price of F-35.
    The recurring retrofit needed to apply the modification to all F-35 B of the LRIP 7 are included as it is normal.
     

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