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The Flying White Elephant

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picdelamirand-oil, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    And what would F-35 do with these asstes as sidewinder 9X is not fully integrated???
     
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  2. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The number is inconsequential. If I'm building 1 million of something, the LRIP units built may be even higher.

    Only 367 aircraft are being built before FRP. Which is about 1/10th of total amount. It is the overall average unit cost that is to come out at <$100m, and pre-FRP units have a weighting of 1/10th of that average. You also can't include re-design and mod costs legitimately in unit cost even for those LRIP aircraft, anymore than you can include RBE2-AA and DDM-NG and avionics hardware retrofits in Rafale unit costs.

    Sure it does. $104m was the base price for the LRIP F-35Bs minus engine, so $125-130m with engine plus $60m of re-design, retrofit and mod costs. Wow, if we included RBE2-AA, DDM-NG and F3+F3R retrofits in the unit price of a Rafale, together with initial unit cost, what would it come to?

    And can you explain the difference between the €68.6m ($82m) quoted for the Rafale C and the €95m ($114m) you charged India, which doesn't even include any retrofits? :cheesy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
    http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-inks-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighter-jets
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  3. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Well, one would assume that they're not using live missiles in an air combat training exercise, so how would that matter?:rofl:
     
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  4. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    And what about the retrofit of the upgrades to fan and engine? There are replacement and retrofit engine charges mentioned all the way from 2013 to 2016 in that sheet. Clearly this is not the cost of just building the aircraft but involves several changes over a few years. Modification, mod, upgrade, change and retrofit is mentioned several dozen times. That isn't unit cost. But the crazy thing is that, in terms of effectiveness, if the Rafale costs $114m, the F-35 probably should cost $190m.

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    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes it is unit cost: it's the price of concurrency, Lot 7 F-35 were not able to get IOC so you have to retrofit them, and after FOC you will have to retrofit them again and after IOT&E and Milestone C you will have to retrofit them again and only at this time you will know the real Price of LRIP 7
     
  6. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    So by the same logic, only when we add initial build costs to F2, F3, F3R and F4 will we have the true unit price of a Rafale. Milestone C is in 2019 and FRP for the remaining 2700 (90%) of the aircraft begins after that date. So in terms of French Rafale numbers, that equates to about 14 aircraft being built LRIP.

    https://fas.org/man/eprint/F35-sar-2016.pdf

    So this is like looking at the cost of the first 14 Rafales in isolation and declaring a unit price. This would be those Rafales produced in 1997, which were retrofitted before entry to service.

    And can you explain the difference between the €68.6m ($82m) quoted for the Rafale C and the €95m ($114m) you charged India, which doesn't even include any retrofits? :cheesy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
    http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-inks-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighter-jets
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  7. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Yes we can consider that F1 was a kind of LRIP Rafale and this standard is the only one that has required a refit to move to the next standard. For other standard we have what we call "compatibilité ascendante" could be translate as "Backwards compatibility" but my english is too poor to know if it is exactly the same. This mean that you can change the standard and continue to use the old hardware...or not: all software modification are done but you get the optimum performance only if you upgrade also the hardware. All French Rafale, currently are F3-O4T, but some have DDM-NG, and some have DDM, some have AESA and some Have PESA, the current standard is able to run all the different hardware. So retrofit are not needed, they are a way to improve performance compare to what was the Rafale initial specifications. For the F-35 retrofit are needed to meet initial specifications and in addition the specifications that will be fulfilled have been degraded compared to what was initially foreseen.

    I can explain the difference:
    • First the difference is between a cost ($82m) and a price ($ 114m) because Dassault is a private company and it must get a margin.
    • Second 82 m is for a french Rafale and 114m is for a Rafale with Indian customisation (SPECTRA low band....) and adaptation to new pods and new weapons.
     
  8. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    And this is the F1 retrofit equivalent for the F-35. Now if you were to take the costs of those first aircraft they would be significantly higher. And if you add DDM-NG, RBE2-AA and upgrade of avionics hardware (processing power was upgraded yes), the price would be even higher.

    So there you go kids, India is paying a 40% profit margin on all Rafales.

    No, $114m is the base price minus the Indian customisation. With customisation it's $170m.

    http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-inks-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighter-jets

    "According to a source in the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD), the order is worth about €7.89 billion (US $8.85 billion). France is expected to invest 30 percent of the total order cost in India's military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components to fulfill the mandatory offsets under the deal.

    Of the total reported amount, €3.42 billion is for the cost of the platform; another €1.8 billion is for support and infrastructure supplies; €1.7 billion will be spent to meet India-specific changes on the aircraft; €710 million is the additional weapons package; and €353 million is the cost of performance-based logistics support, the MoD official said."
     
  9. YarS

    YarS Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry, bro. My English is poor, too, but I think "compatibilité ascendante" could be translated as "FOrward compatibility", and "Backward compatibility" is "Compatibilité descendante".
     
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  10. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Backward compatibility you can have easily but given that some of the changes to Rafale have involved vastly increased processing speed in the avionics modules, you can't really have forward compatibility. The bottom line is that he's attempting to compare pre-baseline LRIP unit costs of F-35 to FRP unit costs of Rafale, which is like using pre-FRP units costs for the PAK-FA prototypes as the final FRP unit costs. You have mods, you have retrofits, re-designs, testing costs and occasionally accidents. All part of a plane's development.
     
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  11. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Development budget is not on LRIP line, it is on development line budget. LRIP line are for recurrent costs or specific cost of the lot concerned.
     
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  12. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I direct you back to the definition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_rate_initial_production

    Low rate initial production (LRIP) is a term commonly used in military weapon projects/programs to designate the phase of initial, small-quantity production. The prospective first buyer and operator (i.e., a country's defense authorities and the relevant military units) gets to thoroughly test the weapons system over some protracted amount of time—in order to gain a reasonable degree of confidence as to whether the system actually performs to the agreed-upon requirements before contracts for mass production are signed. At the same time, manufacturers can use the LRIP as a production test-phase where they develop the assembly line models that would eventually be used in mass production. Therefore, the LRIP is commonly the first step in transitioning from highly customized, hand-built prototypes to the final mass-produced end product.[1] In practice, either the production capability or the weapons system itself can be unready during the LRIP phase. This can mean that systems produced during LRIP are built significantly differently both in terms of technique and cost owing to the immaturity of the production line or changes in the weapons system's design, necessitating a large degree of hand-assembly and trial-and-error typically associated with the prototyping stage. Furthermore, the cost of each LRIP system can be much greater than the final mass production unit cost, since the LRIP cost can include both the R&D and setup cost for production, although the goal is that this additional cost is spread out over future production carried out by the assembly capacity developed during LRIP.
     
  13. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The F-35 has hit another snag — this time because it is just too good
      • Aug. 1, 2016, 5:13 PM

      The F-35 has hit yet another snag. During a recent exercise at Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho, US Air Force F-35A pilots set out to practice evading surface-to-air missiles, but they could not, because the SAM radars on the ground could not even find the ultra-stealthy planes.

      "If they never saw us, they couldn't target us," said Lt. Col. George Watkins, commander of the 34th Fighter Squadron at Hill Air Force Base, Utah, told the Air Force Times.

      To participate in the exercise as planned, the F-35As had to turn on their transponders, essentially announcing their presence so the SAM sites could see and engage them.

      "We basically told them where we were at and said, 'Hey, try to shoot at us,'" said Watkins.

      Had Watkins and crew not turned on their transponders, "most likely we would not have suffered a single loss from any SAM threats while we were training at Mountain Home."

      Air Force planners have been counting on the F-35's ability to enter heavily contested airspaceunseen by enemy radar and missiles, and the result of this exercise seems to vindicate that strategy, to say the least.

      [​IMG]A Patriot Air and Missile Defense launcher fires an interceptor during a previous test at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. The latest configuration of the system, called PDB-8, has passed four flight tests and is now with the US Army for a final evaluation. Raytheon

      "When we go to train, it's really an unfair fight for the guys who are simulating the adversaries," Watkins continued. "We've been amazed by what we can do when we go up against fourth-gen adversaries in our training environment, in the air and on the ground."

      The idea that F-35s can enter the most heavily defended air spaces on earth, pass by undetected by SAM sites and radars, and soften up those targets as well as legacy fighters represents the entire reasoning behind the trillion-dollar thrust to get this weapons system in the air.

      Watkins said that with just four F-35s, he can "be everywhere and nowhere at the same time because we can cover so much ground with our sensors, so much ground and so much airspace. And the F-15s or F-16s, or whoever is simulating an adversary or red air threat, they have no idea where we're at and they can't see us and they can't target us."

      [​IMG]The fourth US Air Force F-35A Lightning II aircraft arrives at the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, in 2013. Reuters

      Watkins described a "pretty awesome feeling" seeing the grand plans of the F-35 come to fruition in a realistic training exercise, by rendering virtually all other platforms obsolete.

      Utah's Hill Air Force Base, where Watkins commands the squadron of F-35s, now has 21 certified pilots, 222 maintainers, and 15 F-35s at the ready. Another F-35 is scheduled to be delivered at the end of August, and more pilots and maintainers are continually being trained to full readiness.

      According to the Air Force Times, no further shortfalls in supply are expected, and top Air Force brass should declare the plane operationally ready within a few days.
     
  14. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    So , it means their SAMs sucks :p
     
  15. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I'm sure some people will say that, even though Patriot has GaN AESA radar.
     

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