Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

The Flying White Elephant

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picdelamirand-oil, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,040
    Likes Received:
    4,472
    Country Flag:
    France
    I have already answered to that.
     
  2. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    And I answered your answer. For higher volume products, LRIP volume is also higher.

    You're still claiming that it doesn't include development, it does, as stated very clearly. They're developing the production line models and the actual assembly capacity. FRP planes will be built by different methods using different processes, use different components and will not require re-designs, retrofits, changes and mods. Chalk and cheese.

    After 20 years of production we'll see what the F-35 unit price is then. Then you can compare it to Rafale prices.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    14,393
    Likes Received:
    2,101
    Country Flag:
    United States
    Wishful thinking.
     
  4. YarS

    YarS 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2017
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    143
    Country Flag:
    Russian Federation
    China have no illusions, because they have historical experience. There was no even one winned war against "Northern barbarians", only way of defense is to build big wall, and even this wall was not much help them -China was conquered many times. It is just a "geographical determinism".
     
    BMD likes this.
  5. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    They're not so great at fighting either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Imjin_River
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    YarS likes this.
  6. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    103
    Again bunch of speculation. The US has been ahead for many years including when the APG-81 was introduced, it comes with better modes and with overall better situational awareness than the Rafale, the F-35 is overall better than the Rafale. Rafale's radar neither has the same long range not does it have the kind of ground radar modes like the F-35. As for the 360 GaN radar for Rafale pure speculation, that would require major redesign and billions in development costs. As for Russia, Let them actually field a 5th gen aircraft in large numbers and then we can talk.
     
  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    8,599
    Likes Received:
    3,338
    Yawn.

    NG started development of a GaN T/R module for future radars only in 2014, the time when the Russians were already flight testing. The Rafale's GaN is also nearly operational/already operational.

    https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html

    The US ordered GaN for their F-15s from BAE for the EPAWSS program. Not their own.

    Ain't speculation.
     
  8. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,040
    Likes Received:
    4,472
    Country Flag:
    France
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f-35-jsf-v-s-dassault-rafale.32102/page-4
     
  9. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    Averageamerican, Immanuel and YarS like this.
  10. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,040
    Likes Received:
    4,472
    Country Flag:
    France
    • The same as when you give us the performance of SPECTRA :laugh:
    • There is nothing exeptional for a radar to detect at very long range when ionosphere conditions allow it.
    • RBE2 AA range is given for 1 sq meter target and Captor-M for a fighter sized aircraft which generally means 3 sq meter.
     
  11. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    MBDA does not mention geolocation for Spectra, whereas it is mentioned on DEWS (ALQ-239), Barracuda (ASQ-239) and EA-18G EW systems. Furthermore Jean-Pierre Grolleau suggests addition in F4 around 2023 in Combat Aircraft. Several French sources cite no true SEAD capability between Spectra and AASM. RAND reports mentions no French SEAD efforts in Libya, but mentions both UK and Italian SEAD efforts. Furthermore it mentions the sharing of data to locate threats within a flight formation being added in F4 2023, whereas the F-35 shares data from everything including other aircraft, AEW, ground radar, satellites, FACs, UAVs to locate things.





    The ionosphere tends to reduce radar detection.

    Generally 1m^2 these days.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  12. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    103
    US has deployed GaN in Patriot Radars, so they beat the others getting there. GaN based radar will be available to F-35 circa 2024 so issues there, Rafale doesn't have it now either and please give me a break the Rafale's AESA only became operational only a couple of years ago, let's not blow hot air where it's not needed. The French hardly have been using AESA in the field for a while now, let alone the use of AESA in the filed for over 12 years by the US. They won't have a GaN based AESA till mid 2020's either.

    Rafale also won't have VLO airframe in 2025 so it will always fall behind. What does US ordering GaN for F-15 from BAE have to do with anything? The system is probably developed by BAE US anyways.
     
    BMD likes this.
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    8,599
    Likes Received:
    3,338
    Lol. Even others have had that. Saab was the first with GaN radars.

    Link? Source?

    http://mwrf.com/systems/analyzing-active-cancellation-stealth
    Active cancellation methods have several advantages compared to passive stealth techniques: They do not require changing the shape of a target, or spraying it, or coating it with absorbing materials.

    The only drawback the Rafale has is the lack of an internal weapons bay, and that mainly comes from a performance PoV. Regardless, it is a stealth aircraft due to active cancellation.
     
  14. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    You'll find that's BAE SYSTEMS inc. which is based in the US with mostly US employees. Same group that do the ASQ-239 on the F-35, same group that did AN/ALR-94 on F-22 too, same group that's doing EW on the B-21. So, what do you reckon the chances are of the F-35 EW system not having GaN very shortly, assuming it doesn't already.
     
  15. BMD

    BMD Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    2,073
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    I've already explained why this can't provide a complete solution. You can't cover everything, including stores in TRMs, so you can't measure the incident phase in all flight conditions, with flex, vibrations and expansion, therefore you can't accurately cancel the entire reflection, especially not secondary reflections. Nor can you cancel the reflection to bistatic receivers separate to the trasmitter, because you don't know where they are. There's also a limit on the amount of sources you can jam simultaneously.

    AND, the ASQ-239 probably does this on top of stealth anyway if you look where the elements are placed.

    [​IMG]

    vs

    3 emitters (one tailpane, one either side of fuselage). Make me laugh.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017

Share This Page