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The Indian Navy's helicopter plans and purchases

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Agent_47, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Not really, because special ops is part of the multi role requirement, while ASW or anti ship are dedicated capabilities. Airbus itself states...

    http://www.helicopters.airbus.com/website/en/ref/H225M_50.html

    ...for the H225M, because it's offered for basic naval roles, in addition to the NH90, that covers the ASW and anti ship roles in their portfolio.
    So while it can serve IN as a multi role helicopter ( including tactical transport for special ops) future LPDs for example, it won't be useful in the attack role from our ASW Corvettes, Frigates, or even on the carriers.
     
  2. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    Where are you getting this ? out of thin air? I'm referring to tender document.


    [​IMG]
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    H225M already have ASW capabilities (As you can see from the official infographics ). There is nothing restricts Airbus to technically integrate light torpedo to H225M. Configuration is offered according to requirement, IN have a multirole requirement with AWS capabilities. And they will be offering it. (Tender specifically asks for all integrations duration and costs). We already have two contenders ,NH90's participation is irrelevant to success of this tender. Don't bring your European bias here too.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    My fault, switched the names, but if you had read the document properly you would have seen what I said...

    A) 1 version for ASW anti ship

    B) 1 for basic naval roles

    No it doesn't, because these attack configuration require changes in the cabin config, the necessary detection systems (surveillance radar and dipping sonar), besides the weapon stations and weapon integration itself. But since Airbus offers the NH90 in these roles, the H225M doesn't have dedicated attack versions.
    Technically of course Airbus will be able to make the changes, test and certify it if necessary, but that comes with extra costs, since these versions are not available.

    Lol again? Btw, isn't Airbus European? So that statement makes no sense at all! :lol:
    Besides the point is, that India won't be able to negotiate the best price for S70s, if we don't have proper competition in the tender. That's the same reason why we want Boeing to offer their Tanker to compete with the A330 MRTT. But you have to get over YOUR European bias that you show in every discussion to understand that. :wink:
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  4. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    No you said basic transport/spops role is part of multirole and AWS/ASuW is different !

    As i said they will add when there is requirement. H225M's predecessor AS 532SC Cougar had ASW version and Airbus already offered Poland it. So, no point insisting on NH90.

    One has to wounder why you insist on NH90 when we already have a competition.
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Exactly, because I was refering to the names of the roles and not the names of the versions as in the documents. But as showed, all basic naval roles including special ops transport are 1 version, while the attack version is different, because it requires more changes.

    :mrgreen: There is no need to wonder, you only need to read what I said properly and with less bias.

    1. IN requires 2 different versions

    2. Airbus H225M is not available in the attack version and is mainly meant for basic roles

    3. Therefore S70 is the only contender that fits IN requirements right away

    4. Higher costs and necessary changes of the H225M will put the S70 already in advantage and won't give us much room to negotiate the price
     
  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    What exactly ? Who will exclude AWS and ASuW from 'multirole' version ? its commonsense.
    You need to check the price of MR-60 and H225M. Even for the basic version sikorsky is costly. That was the point of my first comment today. If Romeo is on offer it will be a level field. Tender explicitly gives room for all modifications. Its good that troubled NH90 is out of question.
     
  7. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    So how many MultiRole MRH and how many SpecOps MRH are we going to buy?

    We know that the NUH order is divided 15-96.
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The tender documents itself, because the multi role version is specific for the 2 mentioned roles

    While the special ops version, includes far more roles transport, SAR, Medicav...

    So if you refer to roles (as I did), the latter is meant for more roles, while the earlier is specialsed for certain roles. But I guess you will blame me for the confusing names in the document too.

    You need to check the price of MR-60 and H225M.

    Again, we know that the S70 was offered and selected so there is no point on considering other versions. And the operational cost of the H225 should be higher too. :tongue:

    Sure, but any not available capability comes at additional costs. Just as folding wings for Rafale M costs extra, or any additional upgrades from the F18 road map will make it more costly too.
    The N90 at least would have leveled the tender on capability basis and offers more performance too, but will suffer on costs compared to the S70.
    However, it's just stupid that we don't see any improvement on the blacklisting.

    Btw, check the retweet I just sent, turns out that the Choppergate scam started under an NDA government in 2003. Indian politics at best. :lol:
     
  9. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    No in the tender its part of 'multi role' not different as you said. Why is it so hard to admit obvious mistakes ? Move on.

    Cancelled tender is irrelevant. It was for 16 and this is for 123. Whole process of evaluation will be going through again. CG selected H225M and may sign the deal before this. Does that count too?

    USN is phasing out S70B for Romeo. From six versions into two. Which is what IN is asking for. @Abingdonboy

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Because I already admitted to what I was wrong about, switching the names. While I was right about 2 different versions, which you denied:
    So the tender documents you posted, only confirmed what I said and proved yourself to be wrong, but I guess you know that. :smile:

    Exactly, the process starts new because the tender structure was changed, while the IN's technical requirements remained the same. So all LM needs to change, is to make their bid according to the SPM now, while the product remains the same. Btw, LM offered both versions to IN in the past and if the S70 was selected, it shows that there is no reason for LM to change that.

    Of course not. IN has different requirements than ICG, they are happy with a long range SAR helicopter, but doesn't need specific attack, transport or external lift capabilities like IN will have, depending on which vessel they will use these helicopters on.
    Ka226 was selected by IA and IAF, but didn't fit IN requirements either.
     
  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    I was replying to this. Where you assumed need for two helicopters if H225 is chosen. But you know that.
    It was 10 years ago and the requirement was only for 16 multi role version. USN deployed Romeo only in 2009. but how did sikorsky offer it to a 2008 tender? do you have source for that?
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    So who is hiding from the truth now? :azn:
    Ehm, it was in 2014 by the current NDA government and the low number was only meant to be a fast procurement to fill the gaps till the larger procurement is done, so that doesn't change the technical requirement either.

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ti-role-helicopter-requirement-300005499.html
     
  13. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    What?

    The tender was issued in 2008. Again where is the source about romeo offer from sikorsky?
     
  14. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Update.

     
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  15. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Rs. 21,738 Crore Mega Project Cleared By Government To Acquire 111 Helicopters For Navy
    The long-pending proposal to procure 111 helicopters for the Navy was cleared at a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, official sources said.
    All India | Press Trust of India | Updated: October 31, 2017 20:00 IST

    [​IMG]

    6 helicopters will be procured at a fly away condition while 95 will be made in India (File Photo)

    NEW DELHI: In a major move, the defence ministry today approved the procurement of 111 utility helicopters for the Indian Navy at a cost of Rs. 21,738 crore.

    The long-pending proposal was cleared at a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, official sources said.


    The sources said that 16 helicopters will be procured at a fly away condition while 95 will be manufactured in India.

    The acquisition of the helicopters will be made under the strategic partnership model.

    The cost of the project will be Rs. 21,738 crore, the sources said.

    The government will now start the process to identify a foreign helicopter maker and an Indian defence firm for a joint venture for the project.

    In May, the government had unveiled the strategic partnership model under which select private firms will be roped in to build military platforms such as submarines and fighter jets in India in partnership with foreign entities.

    The procurement of the helicopters will be the first major acquisition project under the new model.
    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rs-...ers-for-navy-1769474?pfrom=home-lateststories
     

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