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The Indian Navy's helicopter plans and purchases

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Agent_47, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Where is actual proof of the intent from IA for such a large order? We all can do guess work but it should be based on something rite?
     
  2. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Kuwait Ministry of Defence orders 30 H225M Caracal helicopters

    Marignane, 9 August 2016 – Airbus Helicopters has signed a contract with the Kuwait Ministry of Defence for the purchase of 30 H225M Caracal multirole utility helicopters as well as an associated support and services package, during the visit of the French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to Kuwait today.

    “We are greatly honored that the Kuwait Ministry of Defence has chosen the H225M Caracal as the best platform to fulfill its demanding operational requirements” said Guillaume Faury, CEO of Airbus Helicopters. “Our relationship with Kuwait dates back more than 40 years with Super Pumas, Pumas and Gazelles having been delivered to the Armed Forces of the State of Kuwait over the past decades. This H225M Caracal contract opens a new chapter in our cooperation. I would like to personally thank the Kuwait Air Force which placed its trust in our products to renew its helicopter fleet, and I am also grateful for the confidence of the Kuwait National Guard which has decided to create its helicopter squadron with the support of Airbus Helicopters”, Guillaume Faury added.

    During the visit, Airbus Helicopters representatives recognized the key role played by French Minister of Defence Jean-Yves Le Drian who provided his continued support to the realization of this project, in line with the existing France-Kuwait strategic relationship.

    Kuwait’s fleet of H225M Caracal will be used for a wide variety of missions such as combat search-and-rescue, naval operations, medical evacuation and military transportation. The helicopters will be operated by the Kuwait Air Force and the Kuwait National Guard. A combat-proven platform with exceptional payload, a world-class automatic flight control system and long endurance, the H225M Caracal has demonstrated its versatility and performance even in the harshest operational environments.

    The H225M Caracal is the latest evolution of the successful Super Puma / Cougar family of military helicopters, with more than 500 units delivered worldwide. Kuwait is the latest nation to join the community of Caracal users with 138 H225M Caracal having been ordered so far by France, Brazil, Mexico, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, and Kuwait.

    http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/n...ence-orders-30-H225M-Caracal-helicopters.html
     
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  3. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    It has been mentioned a few times the IA is seriosuly considering placing an order for 39 and the follow on clause will be fore 20+ units. I think all in all IAF+IA orders for the Apache will be around 70-80 units with 250 or so LCH and 200 or so Rudra.
     
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  4. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Israel requests $300m sale of SH-60F Sea-Hawk helicopter from US

    The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency has notified Congress of the potential $300m foreign military sale (FMS) of SH-60F Sea-Hawk helicopter equipment and support to Israel.

    Approved by the US State Department, Israel has requested for up to twelve T-700 GE 401C engines, ten installed and two spares; eight AN/APN-194(V) radar altimeters; eight AN/APN-217A doppler radar navigation sets; and eight AN/ARN-15l (V)2 global positioning systems.

    The proposed deal also covers eight AN/APX100(V) identification friend or foe (IFF) transponder sets, eight OA-8697 A/ARD direction finding groups, eight AN/ARN-118(V) NAV receivers, eight AN/ARN-146 on top position indicators, sixteen IP-1544A/ASQ-200 horizontal situation video displays (HSVD), and eight AN/ARC-174A (V) two HF radios.

    Additionally, the sale involves the delivery of 16 AN/ARC182(V) UHF/UHF radios; eight PIN 70600-81010-011 communication system controllers; eight GAU-16 50 calibre machine guns; eight M-60D/M-240 machine guns; eight internal auxiliary fuel tanks; 16 external auxiliary fuel tanks; and eight C-11822/AWQ controllers, armament system.

    Under a separate notification, Israel has also been approved to procure eight SH-60F Sea Hawk helicopters through the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) programme.


    The sale is expected to help improve Israel’s ability to meet current and future threats.

    Science and Engineering Services, and General Electric (GE) will be the principal contractors for the sale.

    The SH-60F Sea-Hawk helicopter for Israel is expected to conduct troop / transport deployment, communications relay, gunfire support, and search-and-rescue.

    It will also be engaged in secondary missions, such as vertical replenishment, combat search-and-rescue, and humanitarian missions.

    Israel intends to use the capability to combat regional threats and to boost its homeland defence.

    http://www.naval-technology.com/new...of-sh-60f-sea-hawk-helicopter-from-us-4944827
     
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  5. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yeah, as i said in the above post 2-3 sq for IA and 3 sq for IAF. For IAF a sq is of 11 units and for IA a sq is 13-14. That means 70-75. Not hundred as @Gessler said.

    Last time heard, shiv aroor said only 28 for IA as reported by Boeing representatives.

    http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/11/yes-india-wants-a-lot-more-apaches.html
     
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  6. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Oh FFS

    Now, the deal will move forward only if Sikorsky, which has now been acquired by American defence giant Lockheed Martin, agrees to extend the validity of its commercial bid and also agrees to reduce the price of its choppers, they said.

    Sources in defence ministry said the price of choppers asked for by the American firm is considered to be on a higher side when compared with the benchmark price decided by it at the time of issuing the tender nine years ago.


    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-united-states-deal-on-deathbed/1/877491.html

    How ENTIRELY predictable!! If you delay and delay and keep asking for the validitiy of the bid to be extended OF COURSE the price is going to go up, this is just common sense and these fools have been haggling for TWO F*CKING YEARS, did they expect the price to remain the same as NINE YEARS AGO? What buffo0ns are present in the MoD??


    I actually thought there was a limit to the stupidity of these babus.

    Parrikar/Modi intervened and got the CH-47 and AH-64 deals sorted, why not this equally critical deal?


    Something else that is worrying:

    Navy's light utility chopper contract was scrapped two years ago and the force is continuing flying the vintage Cheetah choppers. The tender for new choppers is stuck as the defence ministry is waiting to clear the strategic partnership policy.



    DPP-2016 was released almost exactly a year ago now but the strategic partnership chapter is STILL yet to be completed? This will be holding up numerous new procurements (including the Rafale MII), what the heck is the DM doing?


    The more things change, the more they stay the same...


    @PARIKRAMA @Agent_47 @Darth Marr @Levina @Ankit Kumar 001 @MilSpec @randomradio @nair @Gessler
     
  7. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Navy deal to procure multi-role helicopters from the US on deathbed

    A key Navy deal to procure 16 multirole helicopters from the US is virtually on deathbed as it has been stuck for over two years over the issue of price.

    "The contractual validity of the bid submitted by the American firm Sikorsky for its S-70 Seahawk choppers has already expired but the deal is stuck at the contract-negotiations stage for the last two years, including the price," Navy sources told Mail Today.

    Now, the deal will move forward only if Sikorsky, which has now been acquired by American defence giant Lockheed Martin, agrees to extend the validity of its commercial bid and also agrees to reduce the price of its choppers, they said.

    Sources in defence ministry said the price of choppers asked for by the American firm is considered to be on a higher side when compared with the benchmark price decided by it at the time of issuing the tender nine years ago.

    The 16 multirole helicopters are sought by the Navy for its warships and upgrading its anti-submarine warfare capabilities which are on a decline as the Seaking helicopters bought from the UK in the 1980s would be on their way out from the force in near future, they added.

    Sikorsky was selected by the Navy for its requirements in December 2014 as it emerged as the only bidder in the race after Finmeccannica was chucked out of the competition due to the chopper scam allegations on it.

    After the tender bid was opened, sources said there was a demand made to raise the price of the choppers to meet inflation, but the defence ministry sought a further cut in the price demanded by the firm originally in its commercial bid.

    Other issues like liability clause were also responsible for holding up the deal for some time, sources said.


    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-united-states-deal-on-deathbed/1/877491.html
     
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  8. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Irrelevent to the IMRH bro, the IMRH is at least a decade away from being ready for naval ops and will be above 10 tons anyway (by all accounts the IMRH will be heavier). The S-70B is the perfect replacement for the Sea Kings- it is designed with the explicit intent of fitting within its footprint AND it has already been selected the IN on merit and has been given DAC clearance.


    I suspect the S-70B deal will be killed off all together and a n this seems to be this GoI/DM's modus operandi. But it seems the delays in publishing the strategic partnership chapter of the DPP-2016 is what would stall such a new proposal.
     
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  9. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Maybe. But if this deal is killed and GoI go for local production of S70 then its numbers have to be substantial. From earlier tenders we know that IN need around 150 9-12.5 ton helicopters.
    That means possible number of H225M class helicopters are limited. Which may push GoI/IN to wait for IMRH to mature (They are already committed to local production of S-70B and AS565 class). One class of helicopter can wait!. If we can get partners like Bell/Boeing then development time will be shorter.

    My bet by 2022, local production of 70-100 Sikorsky S70B by TATA and 100 Airbus AS565 by Mahindra.

    Btw, is there any solid indication that IN desires two class of helicopters in the 9-12.5 ton range?
     
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  10. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    The H225M MII is almost assured at this point IMHO, if you'll notice there is actually no news of a S-70B offer or much involvement at all of LM in the Indian rotary wing market whereas Airbus Military are by far the most aggressive foreign OEM in this market. I don't see how the GoI is already commited to MII for the S-70B. With the ICG H225M deal all but clinched the H225M's chances for the IN are very very high.

    On the NLUH, I think the Panther does stand a good chance, especially with it already being in service with Pawan Hans and have a very good service record with them.
    Have seen IN and industry (Sikorsky and Airbus) mention numerous times that the IN is looking for a 12 ton NMRH and the 10 ton is implied with the S-70B/NH-90 NMRH contest. Again, strange no real noise has been made on the 10 ton NMRH MII requirement, all I have heard relates to the 12 ton NMRH MII.
     
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  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Companies make all kind of noises. Sikorsky will bat for 10ton while Airbus for 12ton, they are just selling the product. That doesn't prove IN requirement.

    If aggressive marketing is the measure then saab would have making Gripen MII by now. Sikorsky don't need to make much noise because they have already won the competition, Just like Dassult.

    Here from Sikorsky ,

    http://www.thehindu.com/business/sikorsky-open-to-making-copters-in-india/article6917323.ece

    http://www.livemint.com/Companies/5...o-making-aircraft-locally-if-deals-mater.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/sikorsky-to-make-naval-helicopters-in-india-1424415972

    If the above quote is true then there is no space for another class of 12ton helicopter. But, it is from TATA representative thus less face value.

    Sikorsky is already ahead in the game. Because, a) IN already evaluated and selected it b) They are already producing parts in india.
     
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  12. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    S-70B is 10tons, the H225M is still the strong favourite for the 12 ton NMRH requirement but everything you have said is valid.

    S-70B MII with TATA and H225M+Panther MII with Mahindra would be hugely benefical for India.*

    * for this the strategic partnership chapter needs to be finalised ASAP. There is little movement on any major MII deal (C295W, Rafale, MGS, SPG etc etc) though for this very reason.

    Would you agree bro that this GoI seems inclined to go for more G2G deals?
     
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  13. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It will be ironic if all sea going helicopters are imported for the most made-in-india service of our military. :yey: Give a chance to IMRH :drag:

    Its logical. If this negotiation brakes down for this tender then G2G is the only viable route IMO.
     
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  14. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    Lol, I have pondered this before- the most supportive service for the domestic industry (the IN) will have an all imported/foreign airwing IMHO barring the ALH and Rustom-1/2. Their fighter, trainer, NLUH, NMRH (10 and 12 ton), LR-MPA and MR-MPA will all be of foreign designs but gladly much of them will be made in India.
    The problem is the boat has sailed on this one (pardon the pun).

    The IN wants to eb inducting new NMRHs from 2019/20, the IMRH won't be ready before 2026-8 and the N-IMRH will easily take another 2-3 years on top of that. The IN can't afford to wait.

    Even though G2G deals tend to cost a little more I think they are the only deals that should be explored in the next 5 years such are the pressing demands of the armed forces, the current procurement/decsion making system is far too slow- from RFI to induction is about 5-6+ years as it stands. Besides, as seen in this S-70B debacle, the costs increase naturally thanks to the delays caused- swifter but slightly more expensive deals will be only marginally more costly as a result.
     
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  15. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Captain Technical Analyst

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    The delays......!
    Scrap the deal of 16.

    Launch a Light NUH competitor for ;139+36 helicopters [sub 4-5 Ton, with Panther , Bell as competitors. ]

    Launch " 12 Ton Multirole Helicopter Program" ;126+ 28 helicopters [ 11- 12 tons ]

    Launch a ASW/ASuW program ; ~56-64 helicopters [Under 9 tons ]

    PS:- The +28 or +36 part denotes requirement of SAR variant for Coast Guard
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
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