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The Indian Navy's helicopter plans and purchases

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Agent_47, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Bregs

    Bregs Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    yes if trump opens all his card regarding India and if stays stable on those matters then only things will move forward in high tech US defense industry in India
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Exactly and that's what make in India is about. It doesn't matter if the product is small or a strategic deal, it creates jobs.
    But if we have to buy something first, we should get the most out of the deal and get as much as possible in return that's where"most" Europeans have advantages.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Actually Trump might be a problem for larger deals, since he is not willing to divert production to other countries. But offsets can help as well, one has to spin it in the right way.
     
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  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    INDIA, Naval Air: No Mercy For Insufficiently Patriotic Sailors

    May 5, 2017: In early 2017 the Indian Navy was forced to buy another 16 Dhruv helicopters. At the same time the Indian Coast Guard was forced to accept another 16. Why the reluctance of the seagoing services to operate this Indian developed and made helicopter? In short because of problems that have been around for a long time and never get fixed. It all began back in 2010 when the navy bought six Dhruvs for evaluation and did not like what they saw. The main complaints were lack of engine power and poor reliability. These were considered fatal flaws for helicopters operating off ships and used for SAR (search and rescue) and ASW (anti-submarine warfare) work. Since then the manufacturer has made improvements and addressed most of the complaints. But like the original, the later models of Dhruv were more promise than performance and the seagoing forces wanted to buy more reliable foreign helicopters.

    The 5.5 ton Dhruv was in development for two decades before the first one was delivered in 2002. The Dhruv can carry up to 14 passengers or four stretchers. Max load is 2.5 tons and endurance is about two hours (depending on load and altitude). The Dhruv can also fly as high as 6,000 meters (nearly 20,000 feet). Northern India has a lot of mountains, so operating at high altitude was a key design requirement.

    By 2017 over 250 had been built or were on order. Most went to the Indian Army. But some foreign customers (Nepal and Myanmar) also took a few. A series of crashes early on indicated some basic design flaws, which the manufacturer insisted did not exist. The navy disagreed, even though the fleet was desperate to replace over three dozen of its elderly British Sea King helicopters (a 1950s design, and the Indian Navy models are 20-35 years old) and a dozen Russian KA-28s. The navy was allowed to get some foreign helicopters for missions that were clearly beyond the capabilities of the Dhruv, but otherwise the Dhruv was mandatory.

    Until 2010 the “Indian made”, Dhruv was assembled mostly (90 percent) with imported parts. The manufacturer had kept quiet about this because at least half the parts in "Indian made" weapons are supposed to be made in India. Since then the percentage of Indian made components has increased. As embarrassing as this revelation was, it was the performance problems that bothered military users the most although Indian made components often generate a lot of user complaints.
    STRATEGY PAGE.
     
  5. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    New tender will be issued under SP.
    Strategic Partner will make 100 NUH and 60+ S-70B for navy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
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  7. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    How long will this take???? ... Sorry but the GoI is doing what previous Govts are doing .... Delaying critical equipment ... AGAIN!!!
     
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  8. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It will be faster than regular tender route, SP will be identified in next 9 months. Since IN already zeroed in on S-70B OEM selection process will be faster.

    Yes, you are right this MoD is no better signing contracts. But they trying hard to change the underlying reasons of the faulty process.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
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  9. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    How effing predictable! HWTs and NMRHs are a HUGE and glaring gap within the IN, ARVs can easily be covered by the DRDO (and within next 5 years some private entity).


    ARGH, the DAC had cleared the S-70B almost 2 years ago, I was hoping agaisnt hope these clowns would come to another conclusion but as always they have taken the counter-productive decsion....

    This deal is for 16+8 units, no clause beyond that and no MII element hence why GoI/MoD are showing little interest in it :mad:

    At least 80 10 ton NMRHs are required, LM are willing to make the S-70B in India.

    Are you sure about that? Will the IN's selection for the S-70B carry over and automatically give LM the deal pending finding an Indian partner (TASL?)? Won't there need to be a complete reset and re-trailing with multiple contenders?

    I am wondering what will happen in the NMRH arena vis a vis SP, the IN is looking for both a 10 ton and 12 ton NMRH, will two different SPs be created to cater for this?

    Given that Airbus is sat ready to pounce on MII for any deal it gets (with Mahindra) I wonder how this will play out, they will likely bag the NUH (Panther), will that mean they can't take part in the NMRH SP? The H225M is easily the most suitable contender for the 12 ton NMRH requirement.
     
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  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    No, it's my assignment of the situation. S-70B is what IN want. There are no other competitors who can beat it at L1. The road is practically clear.

    You are still giving unfair advantage to H225M.

    1. Immediate requirement of IN is for S-70B class and NUH. There was never a tender for H225M class.
    2. What HAL is working on is H225M class. That means IMRH will be the probable candidate for IN needs.
    Airbus is always ready to setup production if we give enough orders , Same for Sikorsky.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  11. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    The problem in the now cancelled S70B deal was LM.

    LM acquired Sirkosky when the negotiations were on, and from then , it went to the back burner and then out of the window.

    LM were extremely rigid and showed almost zero flexibility while negotiations.

    This was bound to happen.

    The cost they were asking was almost 25% more than genuine costs.
     
  12. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Pal... the Selection of the S70 was done in 2011!!!...LM bought Sirkosky in 2015 ........ 6 years since selection!!! and finally cancellation!! .... Only points to GoI/MoD for the slow and lack of interest and delays for the armed forces
     
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  13. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Delays => Yes.

    But in this case not cancelling the deal would have been hitting nails on our already damaged legs.

    In comparison Boeing kept patience and showed great flexibility.
     
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  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    https://www.thequint.com/opinion/2017/06/19/seaking-helicopters-military-indian-navy
     
  15. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Written by Rikbo (worked on the S-70B's development) elsewhere:

    Have not been on this forum for a long time. No reason too, just delay after delay after delay. Now, finally put out of its misery by the Indian MOD. So sad, this was an awesome opportunity for the Indian Navy to really step up their game and get one of, if not the best ASW & ASuW rotary wing aircraft that are currently in service. Tried and true airframe and state of the art mission and avionics system that is a dream for pilots and operators, designed with them in mind.
    I am angry, angry at one entity, the Indian MOD. They screwed this program and must take full blame for the their unreasonable delays and continuous demands for extending the bid price no less than 5 times. To Sikorsky's credit, they gave in time and time again extending the pricing despite years of cost escalation that is a normal result of the proposal process. Things don't get cheaper.
    This aircraft could have served multiple missions and would likely have led to Sikorsky signing an expansion of their existing cooperation agreement (Tata) to help India gain experience and the skill sets needed to manufacture aircraft in country. Now, all is lost. What a freaking shame!
    I would have looked forward to helping with the new integration challenges to meet the unique Indian requirements but it is not to be. Once again, the Indian Navy is stuck with decades old aircraft that are showing their age.
    Just unbelievable and inexcusable!


    @Sancho @Ankit Kumar 001 @Gessler @PARIKRAMA @Levina @nair @randomradio @Hellfire @Agent_47 @Sathya @SrNair @Bregs @vstol jockey @dadeechi @Grevion@Bloom 17 @GuardianRED
     
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