The Kashmir Conflict

Discussion in 'Social & Current Affairs' started by desiman, Jun 23, 2010.

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Which solution woud you like ?

  1. Solution 1

    47.1%
  2. Solution 2

    3.5%
  3. Solution 3

    42.4%
  4. Solution 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Solution 5

    1.2%
  6. Solution 6

    5.9%
  7. Solution 7

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. rocky.idf
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    rocky.idf BANNED BANNED

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    These guys are sick, that I understand. But where are the MODS? How can they allow these? And where is the topic? Is this an Islam bashing topic?
     
  2. omya
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    omya Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    kid u r talking abt is surrounded by drugs n bad guys n he will die or it will bcum worst dan it is now for us like another afgan......
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  3. Jungibaaz
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    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The only faults that appear as a result of Islam are to do with misinterpretation and compatibility.
    Many members here, you're not the first, who have tried to find faults, even posted fake quotes from the Qur'an.

    I've not yet seen one plausible argument so far.
    It's not that I am ignorant in this matter. Some years ago, sometime after 7/7 bombings I thought a lot like you, I was just about ready to disassociate myself with Islam. But upon research, debate and whole load of reading. I came to the conclusion that it is the religion for me and most of the garbage said against my religion is either fake, misinterpreted or taken completely out of context.

    I would invite you to open a thread with all the faults you can think of.
    We'll see if we can't address some of them and find at least some plausible argument.

    but do remember that supposed faults, misinterpretation and compatibility problems lie with almost every religion and culture for that matter.
     
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  4. Jungibaaz
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    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Mods could be contacted for going off topic.
    I think IDF rules do allow criticism of religion, but that too only with debate.

    but enever will you see these people debate on their own merit and knowledge, only anger and hate.
     
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  5. AccessDenied
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    AccessDenied Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    What many people don't realize is that what is being seen as 'anti-Islam' around the world; is actually the rejection of all abrahamic faiths, and their narrow-view of people (i,e if you don't believe in my god; you're going to hell irrespective of how good you were!).

    Islam comes to the fore-front of the bashing due to the mob mentality exhibited by most underdeveloped muslim societies in their reactions to cartoons and horribly made films. You'll rarely hear Turkey's name in this context (It being a developed country and what not). The developed world is increasingly embracing atheistic values (it is also true for most educated individuals), and their distaste for abrahamic religions (like Christianity) adds to their disgust at the extreme reactions of Muslim mobs; who apparently have a serious problem with free speech (Like all indoctrinated and ill-educated masses).

    [video=youtube_share;_IbTQcJY7U0]http://youtu.be/_IbTQcJY7U0[/video]

    Outbursts like these remind people of the middle ages; which, needless to say, wasn't a very enlightened time.

    Religious identity amongst uneducated muslims often precedes national identity...that is another gripe that most people have with the populace. [MENTION=6586]Jungibaaz[/MENTION] should know this first-hand. I don't think any other religious populace thinks the same way. I, being an Indian hindu, value Taj-Mahal more than Cambodian Angkor-wat (which is one of the most gorgeous architectures of the Hindu faith). It would also be improbable for Indian hindus to have divided loyalties about going to war with another hindu country, if the situation arises. The riots in Azad maidan regarding illegal Bangladeshi immigrants, which (quite evidently) was carried out by religio-fascist muslims; in support of the immigrants instead of the people of their own country, don't help in dispelling this theory either.

    [​IMG]

    ALL OF THIS, taken in conjunction emboldens a lot of people who have a gripe about that religion, to add to the cacophony. Not necessarily with genuine criticisms, but often with half-understood prejudices. And THAT in turn fuels Islamophobia in common people.

    People fail to notice that there are THREE factors that are consistent with these mobs (poor, uneducated, muslim); and instead of analyzing the incidents while keeping all the factors in mind, jump to paranoid conclusions based on the ONE factor of them being muslim.

    This is as much a failure of the logical thought process in the non-muslim mind, as much as it is a failure of educated AND religious muslims; who are either yet to take the initiative for massive reform movements in their religion and make the edicts more relevant to modern times OR fail to tell the world about such reforms if they have occurred. The more we move towards realising a global culture, there is going to be increased scrutiny of each other and our cultures; and an informed dialogue about religions would help us all in avoiding serious misunderstandings.

    Looking forward to your reply.
     
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  6. AccessDenied
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    AccessDenied Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    :facepalm::angry:Bullshit beyond belief. Every community has the potential for reforms. Rigid abrahamic faiths have shown reforms in the past (especially in Christianity), and they have become relevant to modern times. Mentality of this sort is almost as much of a threat to the Indian social fabric as much as islamofascism.

    The potential of enlightenment, improvement and reconciliation lies with all individuals; and applying sweeping generalizations like that seems equal parts stupid AND nefarious.

    ALSO, in practicality, everyone cherry-picks from their own religion. There are gun-toting republican Christians who think turning-the-other-cheek is bs, while Jesus himself preaches that a lot; and there are Hindus who absolutely LOVE beef. Everybody loves to quote scripture out of context as long as it suits their own agenda.

    Islam, unfortunately for the modern context (like I believe), was conceived of in a violent region in a violent time; which is why there are a lot of contradictions between gospels of war and gospels of peace. The contradictions are easily explained if they are put into the historical context; but very few bother to do that don't they?

    BTW- If we hindus could overcome the corruption of the brahmanical classes through the efforts of the brahmans (like Raja Rammohan Roy) themselves and bring about reforms banning satee and enabling the remarriage of widows; anything can happen.
     
  7. AccessDenied
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    AccessDenied Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is where you are wrong. What do you think the likes of Tarek Fateh, Hassan Nisar, Dr. Pervez Hoodhbhoy, Najam Sethi, Malala Yousufzai are, if not reformers of their own society? They hold a mirror of reality for the Pakistani people to see, crushing the islamofacist propaganda of its own government. There are feminists in the Arab world fighting tooth-and-nail for human rights and women's rights.

    [video=youtube_share;_4zIdmOCBsk]http://youtu.be/_4zIdmOCBsk[/video]

    Interestingly though, we don't see leaders or thinkers like them in the Indian muslim community, spreading modern thinking. Maybe, just maybe, it's our own political class's status-quo; that discourages such reformist movements. Because such reform movements in the Indian muslim community would mean the end of vote-bank politics. Think about it.
     
  8. Himanshu Pandey
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    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    you guys just love to do BS rather then discussion so I am closing this thread.
     
  9. Skull and Bones
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    Skull and Bones Doctor Death Staff Member MODERATOR

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    No, IDF does not allow criticism of religion, as we don't have qualified members to represent the values and principles religion from either side. It'll be like quantum physics being discussed by kindergarten kids.

    I urge [MENTION=6916]Manmohan Yadav[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7118]Himanshu Pandey[/MENTION] to delete to offtopic posts, and religious defamatory posts be dealt with infractions/ban.
     
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  10. Himanshu Pandey
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    Himanshu Pandey Don't get mad, get even. STAR MEMBER

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    KK boss next time I will do this
     
  11. Butter Chicken
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    Butter Chicken 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
    Mohammad Abdullah and his family estimate that fewer than 30 Uighur families still live in India [Sunaina Kumar/Al Jazeera]
    [​IMG]
    by
    Sunaina Kumar





    Srinagar, Indian-administered Kashmir - On a wintry November morning in Srinagar, the largest city in Indian-administered Kashmir, Mohammad Abdullah sits on the carpeted floor in his living room, with a black and white portrait of his father, Haji Abdullah Karem, hanging on the wall.

    My father was among the last Silk Route traders, says Abdullah. Karem, an ethnic Uighur Muslim from the Chinese province of Xinjiang, would undertake the perilous mountainous route that stretches from Kashgar to Ladakh through the Karakoram mountain pass that divides China and India.

    Al Jazeera World - The Uighurs: External Exile (44:00)


    Abdullah says his forefathers had trekked the same route, travelling in caravans on top of horses and double humped camels, stopping at the sarais - resting stations for travellers - on the way, bartering silk, spices and pashmina fine cashmere wool.

    One such journey to Ladakh located in Indian-administered Kashmir in the 1940s would turn fateful when Karem could not return home after the People's Republic of China took over Xinjiang in 1949. The Communist government blocked the mountain pass, eventually choking off trade.

    Karem had left behind a wife and a young son whom he would never see again, said Abdullah, adding that his father lived out the rest of his life in India, married a local Ladakhi woman and fathered four sons and four daughters.

    Abdullah, 60, who works for the regional government, lives with his family members in the Rajbagh area of Srinagar, which has remained untouched by the months of deadly anti-India protests that gripped the Muslim-majority Himalayan region.

    Uighur heritage
    A cluster of identical houses built in the traditional Kashmiri style with low-hanging roofs and a wooden exterior is occupied by his brothers and extended family.

    One of the few relics of the past left with the family is Karem's portrait - an imposing looking man wearing a doppa - a Uighur skullcap, squinting his eyes as if shielding himself from the sun.

    [​IMG]
    The photograph of Haji Abdullah Karem, father of Mohammad Abdullah [Photo courtesy of Abdullah family]
    In 2014, a devastating flood ravaged Srinagar. Their house, along with others, was not spared. The deluge swept away precious memories, but they managed to save Karem's original passport issued by the Republic of China, along with a woollen Khotan traditional rug and a copper vessel used by the caravan on the Silk Road to cook mantou steamed dumplings, both of which have been in the family's possessions for nearly two centuries.

    Of all his brothers and sisters, Abdullah is the one the most in touch with his Uighur heritage. For most of the family, it was a matter of surprise that their Uighur heritage could evoke curiosity.

    "In our hearts we are as Indian as can be. Although, we would really like to visit Xinjiang once to see our ancestral land," says Abdullah's son, 32-year-old Wasim. He spends part of the year in Leh, where he is building a resort, and part of it in Srinagar.

    But with renewed hostility between India and China and the crackdown on Uighurs in Xinjiang, there is little possibility of procuring a visa, though both sides of the family have been trying for a few years.

    Seven years ago, Abdullah made his first visit to Hotan in Xinjiang to meet his half-brother.

    Abdullah's dialect is a mix of Urdu, Ladakhi and Kashmiri, with a sprinkling of Uighur words that trace their origin to the Turkish language. Before visiting his brother, he worked on learning the language he inherited from his father and he thinks that he is now one of the only two Uighur language speakers in India.

    "All the people that I met in Xinjiang wanted the freedom we have in India. The sort of protests we see in Kashmir would not be possible there at all. The state would repress it immediately," he says.

    [​IMG]
    Silk road treasures [Sunaina Kumar/Al Jazeera]
    INTERACTIVE FEATURE: China's Uighur unrest

    Arrival in India
    Most of the Uighur community is disengaged from both the Kashmiri separatist movement and the Uighur cause.

    As second and third generation Uighurs who have grown up in India, the Uighur cause is too far removed, and as refugees who found a home here, they are non-critical of the state.

    Abdullah though, has taken up the cause of three Uighur men who have been held in jail in Ladakh after crossing over illegally into India three years ago.

    "They landed without a visa, with the hope of reaching Mumbai to meet [Bollywood star] Shah Rukh Khan and become rich like Indian movie stars," says Abdullah shaking his head, his expression a blend of amusement and concern.

    The Uighur community in India is not large and mostly second and third generation citizens whose parents or grandparents came here as refugees. Those who spoke with Al Jazeera estimate that there are less than 30 families located mainly in Leh, Kargil and Srinagar.

    [​IMG]
    Mohammad Rahim outside his house in Srinagar [Sunaina Kumar/Al Jazeera]
    For most people, even in Kashmir, it is a revelation that people of Uighur origin live in India at all, as they are often mistaken for people from Ladakh or Tibet with similar facial features.

    "Kashmir has a long history of trans-Himalayan migration, because of its connection to the Silk Route," said Abid Ahmed, editor at the cultural institution, Jammu and Kashmir Academy of Art, Culture and Languages, in Srinagar. The best documented of these migrations is that of the Tibetan Muslims of Srinagar, who settled in Kashmir after the 1959 Tibetan uprising.

    The Uighurs came in two waves. In the first, they came through trade and cultural exchanges between India and Xinjiang province .

    Most Uighurs, who came during the 1930s and 1940s, were traders and stayed behind in India after China clamped down on independence movements from the province.

    Mohammad Rahim, 58, works as a construction contractor in Srinagar and Leh, the capital of Ladakh. His father Haji Abdul Rahim was from the Uighur town of Karghilik and settled in India in the 1940s.

    Rahim's mother is from Ladakh and he himself has married a Ladakhi. "I try to keep the Uighur culture alive for my children, but it is not easy," he says, with a tiny shrug.

    He acknowledges a sense of loss. "The only thing we have preserved is the Uighur food which we eat on special occasions, laghman [pulled noodles] and polo [rice pilaf]."

    [​IMG]
    An Uighur feast is prepared at the home of Mohammad Abdullah [Sunaina Kumar/Al Jazeera]
    READ MORE: China to neighbours: Send us your Uighurs

    The second wave
    The second wave of nearly 1,000 Uighur refugees arrived in India to escape the communist regime in 1949.

    The Indian government initially hosted them, but after increasing pressure from Beijing, refused to provide them with asylum.

    The group under the leadership of the most prominent Uighur politician of the time, Isa Yusuf Alptekin, was forced to leave India in 1954.

    [​IMG]
    American politician and diplomat Adlai Stevenson visits Uighur refugees at Yarkand Sarai in Srinagar in 1951. On the left, Isa Yusuf Alptekin, political leader who fled the communist regime and settled in India for a few years with a group of Uighur exiles [Photo courtesy of Erkin Altekin]
    They appealed to Saudi Arabia and Egypt first, each of which turned them away, until they found refuge in Turkey.

    Erkin Alptekin, a Uighur nationalist and the son of Isa Yusuf Alptekin, who was 10 years old at the time, recalls the flight to India.

    "It was a hard trip. There were no streets. The highest mountain passages in the world are here. Sometimes you had to sit for hours in the snow and wait for the fog to dissolve," he told Al Jazeera in an email.

    "We were warned not to fall asleep, because the body loses heat and then one dies."

    The journey took them nearly a month and a half, during which his sister succumbed to frostbite.

    "When we met human civilisation in Ladakh, in Kashmir, we thought as children that we were in paradise on earth," said Alptekin, who currently lives in Germany, where he runs World Uyghur Congress, an organisation of exiled Uighurs and is one of the most well-known activists for Uighur independence.

    WATCH: Terrified of returning to Xinjiang

    Alptekin's family found a temporary home at Yarkand Sarai, in Srinagar - once a rest house and an international trading hub for traders from Central Asia - Yarkand, Samarkand, Kazakhstan, Bukhara - and Gilgit which is located in Pakistan.

    So popular was the trading route that Central Asian people are still widely referred to as Yarkandi in Kashmir.

    The sarai, which local historians date to the late 19th century, had been lying desolate following the end of the Silk Route trade until it became the home of the political exiles of 1949.

    "When we arrived in Srinagar, there were a couple of older Uighur families already living in that area," said Alptekin, who visited Yarkand Sarai again last year.

    The ramshackle exterior of Yarkand Sarai, a closed set of buildings with small houses that overlook the River Jhelum in downtown Srinagar, gives no evidence of its storied past as a flourishing centre of trade and shelter for Uighur exiles.

    [​IMG]
    Yarkand Sarai, in Srinagar, an ancient rest house for Central Asian traders and the former home of the Uighur political exiles of 1949 [Sunaina Kumar/Al Jazeera] [--]
    Across the street on a small patch of land sheltered under a shrine, sits a graveyard where the Uighur people of Srinagar are buried.

    Abdul Hakim's family is one of the two Uighur families still living near the cemetery. His father, who was from Karghilik, traded in carpets and settled in Kashmir in the 1940s.

    He, too, had a family from which he was separated across the border. He talked to Al Jazeera over the phone from Ladakh where he was visiting his relatives. "I heard from my mother that he had two children there and a wife and brothers and sisters and he could never meet any of them again," says Hakim, who works with the state police department.

    In 1976, the family was granted asylum in Turkey.

    "Our passports were stamped and bags were packed. And we thought we would live with our people there. But, we couldn't bring ourselves to leave. Our roots are here," Hakim says.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/11/uighur-exiles-kashmir-heaven-161117133848689.html
     
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  12. Pundrick
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    Pundrick 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    If they are living here from 2-3 generations then they are no more Uighur they are Indians now, and government should make sure that they don't get into the hands of the so called "NGOs" funded by Mullah gangs in the name Allah and force them to carry gun. The recent incident of Rohingya muslim getting killed in an encounter in the valley is a matter of concern. The Rohingyas were also settled by honourable MC former foreign minister Salman Khursid, without any proper government planning.
     
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  13. Lion of Rajputana
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    Lion of Rajputana Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I'm sorry if this sounds politically incorrect, but who the hell thinks it's a good idea to flood Kashmir with more Muslims, especially groups prone to terrorism like Uyghurs and Rohingyas...?

    Have they decided to make Kashmir demographically impossible to assimilate into India? If anything they should be relocating Hindus by the thousands to change the demographics of the valley, along with giving out free land there to ex servicemen.

    As a sidenote, someone may say these people consider themselves Indians, or that the Uyghur and Kashmiri causes are "too far removed" but remember, Europe has spent the last half century importing Muslim immigrants and refugees by the millions, and even if the first few generations were grateful to their new countries, their children and grandchildren often end up radicalizing anyways.

    Don't be so sure that the future generations of these Uyghurs and Rohingyas won't become radicalized or won't get involved in terrorism/separatism.
     
  14. sam2012
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    sam2012 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Heaven for Uyghur / Rohingyas extremist

    But for Kashmiri pandits no place in Kashmir lol , what an irony:facepalm:
     
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