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The Kashmir Conflict

Discussion in 'Internal Affairs' started by desiman, Jun 23, 2010.

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Which solution woud you like ?

Poll closed Apr 24, 2017.
  1. Solution 1

    45.4%
  2. Solution 2

    4.1%
  3. Solution 3

    43.3%
  4. Solution 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Solution 5

    1.0%
  6. Solution 6

    5.2%
  7. Solution 7

    1.0%
  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    No.

    It is not because it is securing borders. If it has to secure borders, and that is your claim, then you have to secure borders in North-East, Indo-Bhutia-Chinese trijunction, Garhwal region, HP and Ladakh region. Further Gilgit Baltistan.

    What a lame excuse for inaction.

    Think hard .. why BJP can not do it.
     
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  2. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It is a distinct anomaly and a grossly unjust provision, especially after the definitive judgement of the High Court. I regret the intransigence of the state government, but they do so fearing for their lives.

    Within the ambit of our discussion, none of the points made are invalid: the old Ranbir Code is valid; the J&K Assembly can pass laws in contradiction to the laws otherwise prevailing on the subject in the Union of India; and we may add this, as you have pointed out correctly, there is no recourse, except by adjudication within the state.
     
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  3. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Precisely.

    There has to be an explicit reference to heirs and successors.
     
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  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Tenancy act has it's own peculiarities. We will head off track here .. but they just might get away if your eviction is proved to be 'malafide', in this case, the provision of shelter not being elsewhere and the intent of your said father being exhibited as being to provide them a place to stay will go in their favor.

    Anyways, we digress.
     
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  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    yes 370(3) does so but where is the second party and who is its successor, if any? Now we have a situation in which Union of India thru President is alive and CS has died without any legal successor. And the successors were also not a party to this temp provision either. So what now?
     
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  6. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    You are right, a smart lawyer and a mentally inactive judge might lead to this conclusion. Something like that happened to my wife, in the case of her property.
     
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  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    If you make a personal comment, you will be given due treatment too.

    Turn back .. and read the post you quoted as edited ..... you elaborated it subsequently. And get the wannabe Scot attempt.
     
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  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I used tenancy just to make a point about temp proviso. Tenancy laws have many other problems also but many people do not know that in delhi only properties with a monthly rental upto 7500/- fall under tenancy laws. Other do not and the same is not applicable even for rental value upto 7500/- if it is for less than eleven months or given on daily rent basis.
     
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  9. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer VETERAN MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No, no, Sir.

    There is no one to advise the Constituent Assembly of India that their work is done, and the Constituent Assembly can now proceed to recommend to the President the abrogation of Article 370. There is not even a Constituent Assembly of India.

    The legal position is: an institution may or may not pass on all its powers and abilities to another, it may choose to pass on some and withhold others. The Constituent Assembly of J&K DID NOT pass on its powers to the State Legislative Assembly that it created. The State Legislative Assembly cannot assume powers NOT given to it by its constituting authority or statute. It cannot advise the Constituent Assembly of India that its work is done, because it was never the work of the Legislative Assembly; so it is unable to ask the Constituent Assembly of India to recommend to the President that the Article be abrogated.

    So, too, the Indian Constituent Assembly DID NOT pass on all its powers and authorities to the Indian Parliament. The simplest test of this is the Keshavananda Bharathi case; if the Supreme Court thought that the contemporary legislator was competent to deliberate on sensitive topics within the Indian Constitution, it would not have restricted the capability of the legislature to amend the Constitution as it wished, with no bar or restriction.

    Neither the initiating body nor the recipient body exists. The process cannot be followed. It was a clearly defined process. Replacing it with another is subject to judicial challenge.

    I agree that the situation needs setting right. But I am damned if I know how that can be done.
     
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  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I did not ever talk of Constituent assembly of India. India was a sovereign nation in 1957 when the constituent assembly of J&K was dissolved. My argument is that in 1957, when GOI, 370 and CS of J&K were alive, CS of J&K died and with that died 370.
     
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Let me throw something here for consideration of members.

    Would it not be right, if it were to be assumed, that since the State derives it's powers and rights from the people, the citizens of the State itself, and so does the nation be composed of the very same people willing to be a nation, then such a situation can be legally addressed by a national referendum, wherein the precise existence of 'special rights' to states is reviewed, and a decision made thereof?
     
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  12. Vyom

    Vyom Captain GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    Classic "Liberal" act. Don't address the issue. Throw a label. Check up what Sovereignty means (but, I guess that's not needed to a living breathing thesaurus as yourself). Also do study, How states react when their own sovereignty is challenged and rule of law breaks down.

    Guess your support for the armed rebellion/foreign supported militancy/Anarchy against the Indian Republic in Kashmir makes you What ? Name calling can only go so far.

    Thanks, for proving my point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  13. Grevion

    Grevion Think Tank TROLL ELITE MEMBER

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  14. Vyom

    Vyom Captain GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    I'll just add to to your point, the instrument of accession was to the dominion of India, was a legal document under the Independence of India act 1947 (this was an Act to make provision for the setting up in India of two independent Dominion states, to substitute other provisions for certain provisions of the Government of India Act, 1935, which apply outside those Dominions, and to provide for other matters consequential on or connected with the setting up of those Dominions.)

    The highlighted part here to make our enlightened friend understand that India was to be Dominion and not a Republic. Had we flown the legal route we would still be common wealth state like Australia but that didn't happen. The Republic of India overthrew the Indian Dominion and all vestiges of the British rule keeping the Republic under no obligation, to whatsoever happened before 26 January, 1950. The Republic of India is a sovereign nation state proclaimed by its people.

    The Article 395 of the constitution repealed both the acts of the 1935 as well as of 1947. With the enactment and adoption of the Constitution, India became an Independent Republic (from a Dominion). The Instrument of Accession became null and void, only Privy Council part was inherited that too later was done away with. The instrument of Accession has no relevance to the Republic of India. Article 370 was a temporary favor to J&K, The Parliament of the Republic of India is legally empowered to do away with it, simply by carrying out a few Constitutional amendments. Article 370 is a temporary special case and a deviation from "The Basic Structure of the Constitution" it can be stuck down by the parliament.

    Article 370 will be struck down the crescendo will build to it, the manner is to be witnessed
     
  15. The enlightened

    The enlightened 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    This

    http://www.firstpost.com/india/kash...r-enough-of-futile-healing-touch-3388838.html

    A new wave of fatalism on Kashmir is upon us. This fatalism isn’t the one that a CRPF jawan or a Kashmiri youth faces in the Valley on a daily basis. The fatalism I'm referring to is shaped hundreds of kilometers away in Delhi where romantic notions still abound of aman ki aasha with Pakistan and Kashmir violence is attributed solely to India's political failure.

    These fatalists give the governments in Centre and state far more power and agency than they really wield in Kashmir.
    [​IMG]
    This fresh fatalism has as its touchstone two recent circumstances. One, abysmal polling percentage and violence during recent Srinagar bypoll which has been interpreted as Kashmir's formal rejection of Indian democracy.

    Two, the brutal war being lodged through viral video clips over the control of Kashmir narrative.

    Amid this cauldron of violence, death, brutal excesses and competitive acts of outrage, the media finds TS Eliot'sThe Waste Land in Kashmir where no hope is left to bloom. And crucially, the responsibility for this is laid solely at India's door.

    To think that a video of Kashmiri youth being strapped to an army jeep would "lose us Kashmir forever" carries an implicit assumption that the State still enjoys some writ in the Valley and is risking losing that writ because our security forces are committing excesses and our media and larger polity are alienating Kashmiris through hate-mongering.

    In short, this fatalism assumes that India is losing Kashmir because of its own fault, and not due to any other extraneous circumstances. This is a gross overestimation of India's control over Kashmir.

    We find variations of this charge in countless media edits in The Hindu, The Times of India, and The Indian Express.

    Public intellectuals and senior politicians are also leveling similar charges against the government.

    In his column for The Indian Express, president of CPR Delhi Pratap Bhanu Mehta puts the onus on the PM, writing that "Kashmir has been lost on Modi’s watch."

    Writing for the same newspaper, Congress heavyweight P Chidambaram says "Kashmir is sliding into disaster" and holds that "alienation of the people of the Valley is nearly complete. We are on the brink of losing Kashmir. We cannot retrieve the situation through a ‘muscular’ policy — tough talk by ministers, dire warnings from the Army Chief, deploying more troops or killing more protesters."

    The former Union home minister advocates talks with "all the stakeholders" including civil society groups, student leaders and separatists.
    It sounds nice, even hopeful. Yet two anomalies must be highlighted in this fallacious and delusional narrative. To lay the onus of recent deterioration of situation in Kashmir entirely at Modi's door is to forget the weight of history and deny the manipulations of present.

    And to suggest that we need to "talk to separatists" is the height of naiveté. Unless he is trying to bake political bread in the oven of Kashmir's anger, Chidambaram should expand on the subject of talks when one side wants nothing less than azaadi and Islamist rule. The ship for 'autonomy' sailed a long time ago. Shariah Bolsheviks in Kashmir want nothing less than complete secession and a merger with Pakistan. Insisting on "talks" is pointless and delusional.

    We have traveled this road before. Except swelling the bank balance of Hurriyat leaders and legitimising their subversive acts in Valley, talks have achieved precious little. More than mitigate the situation, any offer — official or unofficial — for talks is likely to be interpreted as a sign of weakness and will be met with disdain and even more bloodshed. The separatists will gain confidence from the notion that if some violence can force India to the negotiating table, then more violence will eventually force its hand.

    So we come to the central question: What must India do to restore some sort of normalcy in Kashmir? The answer is not as difficult as it seems at this point. The very first thing to do is to accept that Delhi no longer enjoys writ in large parts of Kashmir. There has been a complete abdication of responsibility on the part of the PDP government and there is currently no rule of law in the rural areas of south. Worryingly for India, this fire is now spreading to the north, which has so far been relatively peaceful.

    It is tempting to apportion the blame for this collapse of law and order on the Centre, simply because the worsening of situation has coincided with BJP's reign. Narendra Modi leads an exceptionally powerful government with a huge mandate, possesses deep acumen and has gathered immense political capital in the course of his three-year rule in office. However, this view completely misreads the Kashmir problem.

    Delhi's political failure has obviously played a part but by no means has it been the deciding factor in deepening of crisis in Kashmir. This deep-rooted delusion continues to affect our intellectuals as they search for and find newer and newer grievance narratives. The emergence of the Islamic State and its power to draw radicalised youth from some of the richest and most developed countries in the world should dismiss once and for all the dubious link between Islamism and grievance narrative.

    The narrative that the State has alienated Kashmir by being "ruthless" must be challenged. No government, be it the NDA, UPA or any of the other regimes, have been ruthless in its dealing with Kashmir issue. Had they been, Kashmir wouldn't have been a festering wound.

    What the predominant narrative in India on Kashmir has badly missed is that if the Valley is slipping from our fingers, it is happening not because — as Chidambaram suggests — India has been applying a "muscular" policy,but the exact opposite. India has been too soft.

    We have shown a lack of courage in tackling the crisis and have been weak-kneed in the face of provocation. In this, the Modi government at Centre and BJP-PDP coalition in the state cannot escape blame. Had the Indian state been "ruthless", it would have quietly buried Burhan Wani's body instead of handing it over to his family members who turned the terrorist into a martyr and a totem of Kashmiri resistance.

    The US dumped Osama bin Laden's body into the deep sea instead of letting Pakistan turn it into another site of pilgrimage. What did we do?

    What 'healing touch' do we extend to Kashmiri terrorists who attack the residences of Jammu and Kashmir police, kill their family members and kidnap their children so that they may resign? What talks do we hold with separatists who force political leaders at gunpoint to shout anti-Indian slogans?

    What further accommodation must the government make for terrorists who set government schools on fire so that voting may not be held, kill candidates and threaten the populace?

    The State has been guilty. But its guilt is not that it acted too tough, rather it didn't act tough when it needed to. It has completely failed to provide security to the vast majority of Kashmiris who want nothing more than to end the violence and get on with their lives.

    On Saturday, militants gunned down a PDP worker after storming his residence in Pulwama district while injuring his cousin. In the last 36 hours, they have killed three more, including a lawyer associated with National Conference in south Kashmir’s Shopian, and a counter-insurgent in north Kashmir.

    Rashid Billa's death is especially worrisome. Not only does it signify that militants are now stirring up trouble in relatively peaceful north, it also implies that it is now targeting India's security assets. Billa was appointed by Indian government in the 1990s to counter the wave of insurgency.

    These are not random acts of violence but a calculated move to intimidate the law and order machinery, threaten ordinary citizens and dismantle India's security structure. Little by little, these terrorists are completely wiping out India's resistance.

    As Rahul Pandita sums it up in Open magazine: "The truth is that there is a complete law-and-order breakdown in several parts in Kashmir, especially the southern region. The situation has gotten so bad for the first time since the peak of militancy in the early 90s. There is an atmosphere of fear and intimidation, which has forced many people to stay indoors on polling day. Participating in the electoral process could have consequences that include having one’s property burnt or even life taken. The miasma of azaadi is also gone. It was a veneer that has now worn off. Young militants have made it clear that their fight in Kashmir is not for an independent state, but for establishing Islamic rule."

    India must, at once, restore its writ in Kashmir. And it must do so with ruthlessness. Enough of 'healing touch' that has brought us to this precipice.

    From the hulk of pee dee eff
     

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