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Trump's Ignorant Call To Pakistan's Sharif May Send India An Unwelcome Message

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by vigour, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. vigour

    vigour FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]


    Charles Tiefer ,
    CONTRIBUTOR
    I cover government contracting, the Pentagon and Congress.

    Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
    [​IMG]
    Trump and his transition team are in the process of filling positions for the new administration. (Photo by Drew Angerer/Getty Images)

    We have all seen how President-elect Donald Trump made a cozy, expansive, even flattering phone call to Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. On one level, his remarks could be seen as simply amusing. In America, we have gotten used to Trump’s way of shooting his mouth off without any hint that he knows his subject. It is our daily fare, and each occasion is now taken with a grain of salt.

    But to the rest of the world, his bluster is more likely to be taken as the initial signal of his Administration’s position. When he goes on and on about how wonderful Pakistan is, and how strong is his friendship, it matters. It matters that he uses words like: very good reputation, amazing work, visible in every way, amazing, tremendous, the most intelligent, fantastic country, fantastic place, fantastic people, they are amazing, exceptional people.

    One of the main messages it sends, is that he shows no awareness of the issues between the United States, Pakistan, and India. He may very well not know much. In American, we have gotten used to reading that Trump skips the daily security briefings expected of a President or President-elect. We have seen that his pick for his national security adviser is good only for a narrow focus on terrorism, not the full breadth of world problems. But again, in the rest of the world, this may not be familiar.

    What doesn’t Trump know? I will save the top item for last. Starting with others, he shows no awareness that the American military is enraged with Pakistan for how it props up forces in Afghanistan — the Haqqani network – that kill American soldiers. He probably doesn’t know.

    Nor does he show awareness that President Obama and Prime Minister Modi of India had reached agreement on the important point of joint condemnation of Islamist terrorists based in Pakistan.

    Nor does he show awareness that there has been delicate but real tension between Obama and Pakistan over its expanding armory of nuclear weapons. He does not show awareness that Pakistan, this year, has moved toward distributing tactical nuclear weapons to its army, a step that puts in jeopardy the very fabric of nuclear peace in the subcontinent. He probably doesn’t know.

    I said I would save the top item for last. There is something Trump does have in his mind, but that is not as reassuring as it sounds. In his call, he said, “I am ready and willing to play any role that you want me to play to address and find solutions to the outstanding problems.”

    This has to be read against the background that during the campaign, Trump made one of his characteristic expansive, blustering, but frankly ignorant offers. He offered to mediate about Kashmir between Pakistan and India. I cannot be sure, but that is a possibility in what he means about being “ready and willing to play any role.” He seems to mean the “role” of mediator on Kashmir.

    Needless to say, it was unwelcome to India when he made that offer the first time. Presented in this casual but frankly ignorant way – for he has never shown any idea that he knows anything of Kashmir – it is perhaps even more unwelcome this time.

    The best hope I can hold out to India: maybe Trump will pick a relatively good Secretary of State who will somehow manage to put America’s foreign relations in better order and buffer the world a little against Trump.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/charles...send-india-an-unwelcome-message/#16b76fac2ba7
     
  2. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    It may be just flattery, to fool Pakistan and later be high-handed, to present himself as clever, the showoff which he likes most. Or it could be worst I feared the very first time I started following his news that this fool can mess things up real bad just to get a Nobel or prove himself. His cabinet picking assures me a bit that he wont be very dangerous to India with right people at right places but if he chooses David Petraeus as secretary of state things can go bad with India.

    Former CIA chief David Petraeus is an amazing character. When the whole world knows Pakistan is sending terrorists to both Afghanistan and India, even former Pakistan's Presidents, Prime Minister, ISI Chief, Army Generals, every single person in Pakistan's decision making admits it openly, a former CIA chief says he never found single evidence that link ISI to Afghanistan! Even Pakistani were shocked to hear this if he becomes US Secretary of state US will be finished in Asia. Japan, ASEAN is gone due to TPP, China is enemy, will lose India if this attitude prevails and Pakistanis will never trust US again (maybe with big fat checks they can put Islamic doctrine aside for few nights).

    What a mess a few stupid decision can make and how hard will be it for US to establish her credibility as a partner (which is already notorious) and for India, we will do just fine :) Probably better domestically as we wont be spending tens on billion on US and killing indigenous projects. US is no help so far in any strategic issue or defence issue.
     
  3. cloud4000

    cloud4000 FULL MEMBER

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    So much stock is being put into one phone call. US has always behaved passive-aggressive against Pakistan. Obama has praised Pakistan many times, but also punished it too. This is the same carrot and stick approach US has always used. For now, Trump has shown the carrot. It will be interesting to see how he uses the stick. Let's see what happens.

    I assure you, US feels the same way about India the same way India feels about US -- not really a trustworthy partner. Both know this and have defined their relationship accordingly by focusing on containing China. Nothing else.

    If India doesn't want to purchase US weapons, that's its decision. But please let me know when India will be self-sufficient in arms. I've been hearing the same tune for years and yet the defence industry has yet to turn the corner. Still waiting.
     
  4. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    US can feel whatever they want, India never sent 7th fleet to invade US, so whatever crap they feel, they are free to feel that. That containing China is also another farce, what did US did to contain China? Zilch, Nada. Infact they are supporting China all the way with strongest trade relations between any two countries in the world. Thats one hell of a containment.

    When China try to expand in Sri Lanka, India has to rush alone to change the govt., when China try the tricks with Bangladesh we have to rush again. When China is finding another way to avoid blockade of Malacca strait its India and India alone that is opposing China and US is willing to support China(read CPEC) on it and infact go ahead with Chabahar which is so delayed due to super power sanctions!

    The one with nuclear weapons and epicenter of Terrorism is free, assisted everyday by US with weapons and aid and the one who is so called trying (like WMD in Iraq) to be Nuclear is biggest threat to the world. It was so stupid of us to undermine our relations with Iran due to US.

    What containment are you talking about? Even the country who won against China in International court is now in Chinese corner within few months and abusing the great super power. This is the containment?

    We were stupid to make China enemy for US and jump into SCS dispute with which we had no relation, we stretched ourself so long, from SCS right upto Iran, with every single country, diluting our limited resources and as a result China is again gaining ground. Heck we have to contain them even in Nepal, all alone. We let US President to bad mouth Russia on our land, the one good ally of ours and you say you feel same about us. The irony of this statement.

    The only thing I see US did for India in past 1 decade is providing a Nuclear deal and that too purely for own gains. To get big pie from our Nuclear reactors business and you will get that, around $50 Billion dollars some estimates the cost of new US reactors in India. Thats a big favor isn't it? Warming your pockets with big defence deals and nuclear deals for 1 nuclear deal waiver.

    We like fools again ratified the Paris Climate treaty on much weaker terms against US to again please them. LEMOA is another example where "we" (read India) gave you access to the land for which once you send 7th fleet to invade. I can keep counting all night how many times we were backstabbed just in past decade by US or gave too much without getting anything in return, from WTO cases to COP 21 to ban on ISRO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  5. cloud4000

    cloud4000 FULL MEMBER

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    How much trade does China and India do? And India's trade deficit with China is how much? This doesn't look like containment either.

    People criticize US for being the world's policeman than criticize for not being the world's policeman. Talk about being confused. South Asia is India's neck of the woods, it's in their sphere of influence. Handle it. If want to be a superpower than act like one.
    Sanctions against Iran were not America's alone, it was imposed by UN and observed by all members. If you had a issue, take it up with the whole world, not just US.

    What are you saying? Is China's India's enemy or friend? And for whom are you doing favors? No one forced India to do anything. It was asked to participate in SCS.

    Why do you think any country does anything in this world -- for their own interests. Of course, US wants to sell India things, and so does India to US. India should be thankful US helped get India that NSG waiver, otherwise India's nuclear program wouldn't be going anywhere. Not only is US one of India's biggest trade partners, but enjoys a substantial trade surplus as well. So I don't know what India has to complain here.

    Your anger is toward India's government, who signed and agreed to such deals. As for LEMOA, India signed it with eyes wide open. It can always back out.
     
  6. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    We didn't call for Asian Pivot in the first place did we?
    People criticize US for playing a double game,You condemn Terrorism but supply Aid to Pakistan,which you know will buy weapons to use against India,all the while calling India a strategic partner
    You designate Taliban into Good and bad terrorists. Hunting with the hounds and running with the hares is what US does.That is why we never trusted you,our trust in Russia is good,because they helped us in times of need and we never forget that, it did not try to invade us like US did even though both US and India were democracies.
    We will do just fine,without US intervention or trying to meddle in South Asia.
    Now that you squandered your friends in ASEAN.Things will get back to normal.
    India was doing very well on the Nuclear program,we went critical with our fast breeder Nuclear reactor and way ahead of others on Thorium Reactor resarch,that was put on back burner due to US Nuclear deal,now that will come out of cold storage to be started again.You are not doing us any favor by support NSG waiver,You want to sell us some reactors,that is all.

    The anger is not towards India's government,who were needlessly dragged into issues,which didn't concern like SCS.
    You can bet LEMOA can be scrapped any time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
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  7. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Seriously you are comparing India-China trade with China-US trade? is this your defence? We not only openly boycott Chinese but encourage others to do it.

    Anyways lets put some stats for reference, in 2014, everything in US dollars:

    US exports to China 134 Billion, US imports from China 432 Billion, total trade = 566 Billion, deficit = 298 Billion
    Indian exports to China 14 Billion, Indian imports from China 52 Billion, total trade = 66 Billion, deficit = 38 Billion

    and this does not include services export which will make this figure monstrous in trade deficit of US-China and reduce 38 Billion to great extent. Also Sino-Indian relations were on positive curve before US started to poke nose, it was not our policy to contain China but to make ourself strong, its only after our relations with US improved Sino-Indian relations degraded.

    Lol, who gave you this designation of policeman? If you interfere in other countries they will criticize you and more so when you do it with full hypocrisy, when you invade an innocent country Iraq but assist a terrorist nation Pakistan. Is this the role of self claimed policeman? and yeah we are acting alone and I have mentioned in previous in detail.

    hahahaha, joke of century, and did UN also asked you to bomb Iraq? or a sovereign state of Syria asked to start bombing their civilians? and you really think that sanctions against Iran were not due to US but "whole world", lol, unfortunately you are talking to informed people not just some other troll so these childish arguments may not work here.

    There are many countries in world which exist purely on business relationship, its really not mandatory to classify them as friend or foe. Our relations with China were getting better as I have said above. I do agree we were not forced into SCS but promised a seat in NSG or anything other and as usual it was so hard for US to keep its promise. This duplicity, this constant backstabbing is what I am talking about.

    Did your President said the same thing to CIA Chief in 1999 Nuclear tests of India?

    And we are thankful, so much so that you can check your order books, they are filled with big deals. That waiver costs is distributed from defence deals to nuclear market.

    Come on man, you are technologically advanced than us but we are closing the gap. Its not even 70 years of Independence and you are living from 250+ years of Independence, 20-25 years more and we will be ahead of you in any field, every field (not my words, US think tanks words). Want example? Ask US Govt. why they put ban on ISRO :)
     
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  8. cloud4000

    cloud4000 FULL MEMBER

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    Did anyone force India to join US in its Asian Pivot? No.

    You want US to declare Pakistan a terrorist entity, but India has not done the same. India trades with Pakistan. Still has diplomatic relations with Pakistan. Strange things to do when India is at war with Pakistan.

    When did US ever try to invade India, if such a thing was even possible?

    India's love affair with Russia continues even with the latter's flirtation with that terrorist entity known as Pakistan. Strange how the Russians are allowed to play with Pakistan, but US isn't.

    And why is India so desperate to get into NSG? And is lobbying everyone, including the US for membership?

    Indian anger is misplaced as usual: blame others when they only have themselves to blame.
     
  9. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    You are repeating the same thing, nobody forced but promised us and backtracked. We dont want you to declare Paksitan a terrorist nation, thats the popular thought not a sensible one but we want to understand how come policeman of world is in bed with a murderer daily and still claim themselves to be policeman?

    Try searching for 71 Indo-Pak war, read what Kissinger and Nixon did. See how Nixon even broke law and lied to US public to support Pak and China.

    There is no love affair between Pakistan and Russia, more like PDF troll machines misinformation, they even asked India before selling the helicopters to Pakistan (Russian high commission admitted this publicly). But yeah there is some activity between Russia and Pakistan for which our Ambassador openly expressed displeasure in Russia just before Putins visit. They wont fund Pakistan to kill their own troops in Afghanistan, never, only and only US can do that.
     
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  10. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    @cloud4000 anyways these stupid discussions never yield anything constructive and your defence is also not up to the mark so I wont engage any further, we will be dragging this topic uselessly.

    Modi provided so many concessions to US that no Prime Minister ever did and had he not been so popular he would be dragged by collar for this many concession without getting "nothing" substantial in return. It was US who destroyed the relations, twice (71, Nuclear tests) and yet we provided the concessions, US should have reciprocated equally.

    You must understand Indian public feel extremely angry with any country providing arms and aid to Pakistan. You can be generous and forget 3000 deaths in NYC and support the country that hide OBL but we are not so generous, 200 in Mumbai are more than enough for us to remember forever. Peace.
     
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  11. cloud4000

    cloud4000 FULL MEMBER

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    I find this confusing. What exactly do you want India's policy towards China be? If not, containment. Then what else?

    Sorry, you must not be familiar with UN resolutions 1696, 1737, 1747, and 1929. India can skirt US sanctions on Iran, but not the UN.

    US didn't promise India a seat in NSG, but only to back its membership. US is not the main obstacle to US, but other countries, including China. Please don't blame US for India's unrealistic expectations.

    More Indian bombast. I will believe it when I see it. I believe IAF is still waiting on Teja. And how is India indigenous tank program is going?

    Then answer the question why India still trades and has diplomatic relations with Pakistan? Why hasn'tIndia declared Pakistan a terrorist state?

    And what international law did India violate when it invaded East Pakistan, a sovereign country? Was it on humanitarian grounds. Sounds like an excuse an imperialist would use.
     
  12. cloud4000

    cloud4000 FULL MEMBER

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    Yes, it's very obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  13. BlackOpsIndia

    BlackOpsIndia Developers Guild Developers -IT and R&D

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    Like "when did US tried to invade India"? Or Imperial India invaded East Pakistan!!!! Do you even read history? and how ironic is that we are lectured on invasion by US! lol, even the irony will die thousand times. Read US account of who invaded whom in 47,62,65,71,99 all wars of India.

    You are too shallow friend not worth dragging this, yet to find a single strong argument you put as counter.
     
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  14. cloud4000

    cloud4000 FULL MEMBER

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    How can you can counter someone when they are talking nonsense to begin with. Please make your point more clearly.
     
  15. Nilgiri

    Nilgiri Lieutenant GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    Reading too much into a phone call.

    It's Pakistans last effort at trying to paint a brave face.

    In reality, Trump is probably going to be really bad for them overall.

    Even continuing the current status quo is going to be quite bad.

    What wont happen is an improvement or back to the 80s kind of thing that people are fearing from just one phone call.

    We really ought to wait for Trump to actually become president first and give him 100 days or 1 year and then make a judgement on all matters.
     

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